NOCO Genius 1 Poor Tempurature Compensation

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As to CTEK, which parallels NOCO.. I just measured 13.93V on battery at Stage 7. Not disconnected since previous pics.

I know I should take the protective cover off the screen, but I just can't bring myself to do it lol.

The ctek keeps float voltage for 10 days. I guess the logic there is if you’re an intermittent user that wants to stay truly topped up (say, a fire and rescue vehicle or something like that), the float voltage is the right way to go, but if sitting for more than 10 days, better off letting it rest.

I’m curious what your ambient temperature is.

A simple set of calculations can be found on Wikipedia.

−3.9 mV/°C (−2.17 mV/°F)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Float_voltage

Curious if your observed voltage checks out. Seems a tad high, but if it’s cold out...
 
JHR2-
I got that NOCO Genius 1 recently and fullly charged green indicator light never periodically goes off to indicate battery is entering maintainer mode. To check, I installed my Shumacher and its green light goes off to indicate battery is fully charged and periodically lights up to indicate maintainer charge. Voltage readings also show full charge. This is an almost new Deka AGM top of the line battery installed in my seldom driven garage queen.

Does your NOCO exhibit this behavior suggesting mine is faulty? I can still send it back.

FiveAcres, good call on the temperature compensation from internal sensor

Id argue that it is highly contingent upon your parasitic loads on your vehicle.

If it’s like ctek, it will wait for a long time before going to maintenance.

I have observed the blinking green (can solid), but that takes a long time. The charger doesn’t have a lot of voltage to force the current in, and if the vehicle is pulling small drains down, it will register as still needing more.

Did you use the AGM setting on the NOCO?

if the voltages are right but the AGM resistance is low enough that at a reduced voltage it still accepts current (remember Vterminal=Vopencircuit +/- I*R), it may be tricking the logic in the charger.
 
The ctek keeps float voltage for 10 days. I guess the logic there is if you’re an intermittent user that wants to stay truly topped up (say, a fire and rescue vehicle or something like that), the float voltage is the right way to go, but if sitting for more than 10 days, better off letting it rest.

I’m curious what your ambient temperature is.

A simple set of calculations can be found on Wikipedia.

−3.9 mV/°C (−2.17 mV/°F)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Float_voltage

Curious if your observed voltage checks out. Seems a tad high, but if it’s cold out...
It warmed UP to 28 degrees this hour, and must have been high teens this morning. That might still not be "cold" (I've seen tempteratures of 2 degrees, 4 degrees in the morning.. can't remember last time it was zero or colder. Maybe 2013/2014 "Polar Vortex") but.. call it High Teens since this was at about 4AM.

And of course it was about that cold all day Christmas (stayed inside all day, wonderful day. Went outside 5 minutes to make a phone call) and there was a WIND STORM and rain the day before, so.
 
−3.9 mV/°C (−2.17 mV/°F)

Call me whatever you want, but I'm having trouble figuring this one out.

Seems VOLTAGE divided by Temperature ?

I'll throw it on there again now before the car begins being used for the day. I think the temp is holding at 28 degrees F.
 
Id argue that it is highly contingent upon your parasitic loads on your vehicle.

If it’s like ctek, it will wait for a long time before going to maintenance.

I have observed the blinking green (can solid), but that takes a long time. The charger doesn’t have a lot of voltage to force the current in, and if the vehicle is pulling small drains down, it will register as still needing more.

Did you use the AGM setting on the NOCO?

if the voltages are right but the AGM resistance is low enough that at a reduced voltage it still accepts current (remember Vterminal=Vopencircuit +/- I*R), it may be tricking the logic in the charger.
Thank you JHR2-
It is set for AGM and it's been on for a solid 2 weeks or so. Checked parasitic load and less than 50 milliamps. That dang green light never goes out while my old Shumacher does periodically when I installed it to see what happens. BTW, is NOCO a good respectable brand? Maybe I'll just get a Ctek
I'm also concerned with charging voltage being 14.8. East Penn Tech Support (Deka) says 14.4-14.6v (no higher) but contradicts itself in their tech bulletins.
 
Thank you JHR2-
It is set for AGM and it's been on for a solid 2 weeks or so. Checked parasitic load and less than 50 milliamps. That dang green light never goes out while my old Shumacher does periodically when I installed it to see what happens. BTW, is NOCO a good respectable brand? Maybe I'll just get a Ctek
I'm also concerned with charging voltage being 14.8. East Penn Tech Support (Deka) says 14.4-14.6v (no higher) but contradicts itself in their tech bulletins.
CTEK Stage 4 stops at 14.35-14.4V, fwiw.
 
^^ Oh wow! I was wrong again.

Temperature forecast (probably wrong) says it's 28 degrees Fahrenheit outside.. feels colder. Clear day.

14.77 Volts. Stage 4.

IMG_20201226_110916010_HDR.webp
IMG_20201226_110935698.webp
 
Now it's up to 14.81V on the Stage 4. Edit: and climbing.

I wonder if it being on that COLD garage CONCRETE SLAB floor is causing it to overcharge.

Summer it seems to stop at the 14.4.

But. That IS the range of 14.4-14.8V as stated by willbur
 
Gets plenty cold here 100mi. straight north of Green Bay and like most I have many batteries...I rotate 3 NOCO .75 chargers on about 5 batteries but wanted to mention my 2007 Honda Rubicon never charged or maintained still has the original Yuasa battery, I just shake my head.
 
Sure.

I think it’s first important to recognize a few things:
1) a connected battery will face some level of parasitic load, including from internal self-discharge.

2) A battery’s state of charge can be correlated to its voltage, which is the sum of the electrochemical potentials of the half cells (anode and cathode). These vary slightly based upon the alloys, pastes and other active chemical components in the battery, as well as temperature.

#1 is important because it means that batteries are always self discharging. Lead acid batteries (including flooded and VRLA/AGM) need to stay at exactly 100% for max life. A tiny bit more, and degrading corrosion occurs. A tiny bit low and sulfation occurs. #2 is important to realize that since the industry and end users lack configuration control, Thus the absolute truth on the absolutely correct voltage at temperature to define as 100% is variable. Thus everything else must be assumed to have a bit of error.

Float (or trickle, which is sometimes used interchangeably), is the elevated voltage level that provides an “equilibrium”. That is, where after a proper charging profile to 14.4/14.7V, the voltage is reduced to a level where any parasitics (self discharge) is offset at effectively a net zero level. Because there are electrochemical “activation” losses in charging, it takes a little bit of a voltage boost to squeeze the electrons in.

So float is a “lossless” interface (calling it an interface vs a voltage because it needs to be applied, it doesn’t naturally happen to be that high), or at least in theory. If the float voltage was kept exactly right for the battery chemistry and temperature, the battery would stay at 100%. Practically speaking, a battery connected to anything are a parasitic, regardless of light loads. The battery itself is a parasitic, see #1. Thus to have true and ideally maximum capacity and capability from a battery, you want it sitting at float.

There are two schools of thought though:
a) Float is never exact for any number of reasons, thus permanent “float” will result in some periods of corrosion and some periods of sulfation. This is because of #2 above. Thus prolonged float is causing some unforeseen damage, regardless of how small. You’re better off “fully” charging (which again is not an exact matter), and just topping up in a controlled way at some predefined voltage.

b) Since batteries are expected to provide max performance, float should be maintained, and a flag should be set if/when sustained current requirement goes too high. Any chance of damage or degradation is no worse than sitting at less than 100%.

I think I’d argue that if you have a true mission critical application, like a major backup power system or something like that, and max capability is required, permanent float charging is important. For vehicles, it’s such an inexact science, and battery replacement is favored to gain reliability, then getting in the ballpark to help gain longevity and offset losses is the best you can ask for. Thus why the NOCO/ctek approach is growing on me. Elevated voltages increase stress on electric components (like electrolytic capacitors on circuit boards). If after a prescribed duration on float, it shuts off and monitors, it should be good enough for a 3-10 year replacemebt cycle on the battery, and be easier on other electronic components, even if just marginally.

Let me know if you have questions.

Very well said, you perhaps have swayed me a little bit away from the battery minder philosophy, On this tractor the higher float voltage doesn't matter to the unit since there are no electronics energized with the key off, however I suppose the elevated voltage from the surface charge could have an effect since I disconnect the battery minder and immediately proceed to start the tractor, although the glow plugs quickly pull the voltage down.

I do believe you are correct that there is an effect of higher float voltages on electrolytics and such, even if minimal.

I come from the mindset formed from maintaining critical DC power supplies, we float continually at 2.200 volts per cell @ 77°f with temperature compensated charging. Some of these banks make it 20 years and still have acceptable performance.

Definitely fun to play around with the different approaches to charging and maintaining batteries.
 
Call me whatever you want, but I'm having trouble figuring this one out.

Seems VOLTAGE divided by Temperature ?

I'll throw it on there again now before the car begins being used for the day. I think the temp is holding at 28 degrees F.

Float voltage is generally defined as a specific value at a specific temperature.

Let’s say 2.25V/cell, which for a 6 cell/12v battery is ~13.5V.

The temperature compensation I provided is quite simple. -3.9mV/C means that for each degree Celsius above 25C (77F), you decrease the float voltage by 3.9mV. Conversely, if you are below 25C, you would raise the float voltage by 3.9mV/ degree C.
 
Float voltage is generally defined as a specific value at a specific temperature.

Let’s say 2.25V/cell, which for a 6 cell/12v battery is ~13.5V.

The temperature compensation I provided is quite simple. -3.9mV/C means that for each degree Celsius above 25C (77F), you decrease the float voltage by 3.9mV. Conversely, if you are below 25C, you would raise the float voltage by 3.9mV/ degree C.
Oh, okay, I see. Alright.

Raise it 3.9mV under 77 degrees F
Decrease it 3.9mV over 77 degrees F.

I was confused because I thought you wrote out some kind of mathematical expression.

Its kind of cold here in NJ. Going down to 22 tonight and feels colder. So.. how many mV in a Volt? *yes I'm asking basic questions but it's having things explained and told many different ways, one of them it just "clicks."
 
Oh, okay, I see. Alright.

Raise it 3.9mV under 77 degrees F
Decrease it 3.9mV over 77 degrees F.

I was confused because I thought you wrote out some kind of mathematical expression.

Its kind of cold here in NJ. Going down to 22 tonight and feels colder. So.. how many mV in a Volt? *yes I'm asking basic questions but it's having things explained and told many different ways, one of them it just "clicks."

3.9mV per degree. That’s just “a” value that is available in the open domain, and not the value they use.

I have absolutely seen chargers change the float voltage, so I am confident that they do work like that.
 
The Battery minders with temperature compensation have the temp sensor outside the device, the NOCO Genius 1 supposedly has temperature compensation and the sensor is inside the device. I can only assume that the heat generated from the transformer inside the device effects the ambient temperature sensor inside the device and there is not correct internal compensation, or the programing of the logic does not continually hold float voltage at the maximum allowable voltage for the corresponding temperature and this is by design and part of the Genius working its magic, or the float voltage simply is not as high as on the battery minder, which does not make sense and would create its own issues.

I cannot find any information in the NOCO manual on the charging algorithm like I have found in battery minder or Ctek manuals.

Ive been interested in these NOCO chargers simply because they’re a low cost alternative to the battery minder units, which are my favorite, for maintenance charging purposes.

I reviewed info I had, including correspondence with NOCO. One email I had from them was as follows:

Our chargers are considered smart chargers and do not use a traditional float voltage. Instead they remove the charge once it is complete and go into a low energy maintenance mode where they monitor the battery. If the battery voltage drops below its resting voltage (approximately 12.8V +/-0.2V) the charger will provide a trickle charge to top the battery off. This is a better maintenance charge for the battery than a constant float voltage.

The term “smart” is used loosely, as is what is better than what else. But indeed it’s expected that the battery is allowed to “rest”, then gets topped off.

What they say though makes sense. In the era of not smart chargers, the float value allowed the charger to stay on without real charge of damage or thermal runaway. A controlled charger with an algorithm doesn’t need that per se. it sounds like the algorithm comes on at 99% SOC, and is likely temperature dependent.

I don’t fundamentally have an issue with this for long term (storage) charging. For a charger someone wants to put on overnight to randomly “top off” a battery, this would also do fine, but that is where I think getting to a dedicated float value for a bit is worthwhile.

In the end, anything is better than nothing in terms of using a charger like this or others, versus not.
 
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Also was looking through some photo archives from when I was fiddling with some meters on the spring. You can see the sequence of charging.

80D0B8F4-4B6D-491A-8868-F06D1C869BB5.jpeg

09ADE3D1-2C9E-4C18-849C-6437B7A70368.jpeg

A2A758F1-E1DA-493B-80D3-CDCE467F0A26.jpeg
DEE3FA88-EE92-4A1C-ADE4-6AA7824BBBF3.jpeg


These are in sequential time order, so it seems like the charger goes up to proper CC/CV voltage, then drops back to a lower voltage when finishing (solid green).

I think the final picture I had changed the connections somehow, note the positive/negative on the ammeters, and which is reading what, but in a short time the float voltage was taken up, while current effectively went to zero. The timeline on these was between 5:11 and 6:52pm. Note the battery was already “fully charged”, because I had been doing similar things with another charger on that battery for sometime before.

What is interesting though is that the charger raises the 13.xV “finishing” charge (not calling it float because they don’t) before shutting off. I guess it’s a way to test if the battery will accept more current without taking the voltage up too high?

At some point it does shut off lie described by NOCO. I’ve seen that multiple times.

I am curious what they charge back up to when it “tops” the battery. I have a data logging multimeter, someday I’ll try to run a test.
 
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Oh, okay, I see. Alright.

Raise it 3.9mV under 77 degrees F
Decrease it 3.9mV over 77 degrees F.

I was confused because I thought you wrote out some kind of mathematical expression.

Its kind of cold here in NJ. Going down to 22 tonight and feels colder. So.. how many mV in a Volt? *yes I'm asking basic questions but it's having things explained and told many different ways, one of them it just "clicks."
That should be:

Raise it 3.9mV per degC, when under 25C, per cell

Raise it 2.17mV per degF, when under 77F, per cell

In a 6 cell 12V battery, that means raise it 13.0mV per degF, when under 77F

At 28F, that means the charger should be putting out 0.64V more than the charging voltage used at 77F

e.g. If your typical charging voltage at 77F is 14.5V, it should be 15.14v at 28F.
 
That should be:

Raise it 3.9mV per degC, when under 25C, per cell

Raise it 2.17mV per degF, when under 77F, per cell

In a 6 cell 12V battery, that means raise it 13.0mV per degF, when under 77F

At 28F, that means the charger should be putting out 0.64V more than the charging voltage used at 77F

e.g. If your typical charging voltage at 77F is 14.5V, it should be 15.14v at 28F.
Yep! And it was more like 20 or a little lower that day.

Nice!
 
That should be:

Raise it 3.9mV per degC, when under 25C, per cell

Raise it 2.17mV per degF, when under 77F, per cell

In a 6 cell 12V battery, that means raise it 13.0mV per degF, when under 77F

At 28F, that means the charger should be putting out 0.64V more than the charging voltage used at 77F

e.g. If your typical charging voltage at 77F is 14.5V, it should be 15.14v at 28F.
Thankyou-
But what is the base charging voltage to apply the +- correction to? Knowing this for each specific car and its battery is probably impossible to find out?
 
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