NOCO Genius 5 Float Voltage.

[gathermewool]

I‘ve had and used my NOCO for the past year and a half, along with a second charger, a CTEK (56-158) 3300. I prefer the CTEK although it gets pretty darned warm just sitting there plugged in, not connected to the battery and very warm while charging.

My NOCO doesn’t maintain a high enough float voltage, IMO. After being hooked up overnight to the Forester’s battery the green light was pulsing this morning and voltage read 12.58VDC. I inquired with NOCO, who got back to me the same day, and this is what their response was:

Our chargers do not use a traditional float voltage. Instead they remove the charge once it is complete and go into a low energy maintenance mode where they monitor the battery. If the battery voltage drops below its resting voltage (approximately 12.8V +/-0.2V) the charger will top the battery back off to full. This is a better maintenance charge for the battery than a constant float voltage.
Please let us know if you have any additional questions.
Regards,
Chris G
NOCO Support Specialist

Thoughts?

 

[2010Civic]

Noco has been making battery chargers since 1914. I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[92saturnsl2]

I've noticed this too on my Noco chargers. Was never worried enough about it to E-mail them, but I'm not crazy about it and prefer the traditional float voltage.

The million dollar question is--- does the battery actually get a full charge? If it does, then holding the battery at 12.8V should maintain it (assuming there are periodic top-ups when voltage falls below a predetermined amount) and not hurt anything.

I just went and measured a Genius 2 that's been plugged into one of my cars for a few days, light is solid green and voltage at the battery is 12.87V. So seems to be doing its job.

 

[SubLGT]

Different manufacturers have differing ideas about how to float charge.
Pro-Logix takes the same approach as Noco.

Battery Tender takes this approach:

....This [float charge] step is very important in terms of the fundamental Battery Tender® defining concept. The whole purpose of float / maintenance is to maintain a fully charged battery in that 100% State of Charge (SOC) condition. For nearly all batteries, that means applying a voltage to a fully charged battery that is 1 or 2 tenths of a volt above the voltage that the battery would support to indicate that its SOC = 100%. Also, the battery must be at rest, not being charged or discharged.

In most cases, a 12 volt lead-acid battery, at 100% SOC, will have a rest voltage between 12.8 and 13.1 volts. That means an effective float voltage need only be as high as 12.9 to 13.2 volts. However, most Battery Tender® battery chargers have float voltages between 13.3 and 13.5 volts. The important thing is that the float voltage should be higher than the fully charged rest state battery voltage and it should be lower than the gassing voltage which is about 13.8 volts. See the discussion about float charging on the Battery Tender® website. It is definitely worth your time to read that document......

Float/Maintenance Charging: Is it really necessary?

www.batterytender.com

Battery Charging Basics

www.batterytender.com

 

[gathermewool]

10.58VDC is not full.

 

[JHZR2]

I like it but I don’t. I’ve observed this too.

I’ve seen it sit like that to 12.6V. It takes so long before anything happens (unless you have a parasitic draw), you won’t usually see it switch modes.

The reality Is, this is an auto battery, not a $50k data center UPS. The end user has no real hood objective standard for state of health. Thus it WILL be replaced every so often. So remind out the very last bit of energy or life isn’t really the calculus.

Because this sits at a lower voltage most of the time, there’s less voltage induced stress on every electronic part that is exposed to that mains voltage. This will mean longer life for all the critical parts. While a marginal life or energy reduction due to the charging profile may be the reality, it’s splitting hairs and not
Important to a typical user.

 

[wdn]

I am very satisfied with the performance of the NOCO Genius 5. If it knows when the battery is charged and shuts off and just monitors the voltage that’s fine with me.

 

[92saturnsl2]

Because this sits at a lower voltage most of the time, there’s less voltage induced stress on every electronic part that is exposed to that mains voltage. This will mean longer life for all the critical parts. While a marginal life or energy reduction due to the charging profile may be the reality, it’s splitting hairs and not
Important to a typical user.

What electronic parts are you referring to? The vehicle?

Those parts are rated for all the voltages seen in a vehicle environment-- we're talking 10V dead battery voltage, all the way to 14.4V+ charging voltage. The only difference is at lower voltages those parts will be pulling more current, and at higher voltage, less current. Unless the particular part has an internal voltage regulator, of course, but then the voltage regulation circuit faces that same equation.

Whether it's splitting hairs or not, I don't think is the OP's point.. If a consumer has a choice between product A or B, both designed to maximize the life of a battery (a replaceable component as you noted), and one works better in that mission than the other, why not choose the better one? I don't think component life in the vehicle plays a factor at all here.

 

[wrcsixeight]

I closely monitored the algorithm of a genius one, on the AGM setting. Not just voltage/ pressure, but what was actually flowing, amperage.

I forget the exact specifics but it had three different amperage levels, that lessened at specific voltages, and when it reached 14.7v at well less than 0.5 amps, it shut off, and it would not turn attempt top charge again, until battery voltage dropped to 12.69v.

I imagine the flooded battery settings are a few tenths lower, I did not bother checking, and wont.

The IDEAL float voltage, is variable.
the variables are the specific battery, and its temperature, and its health. The latter two can throw giant monkey wrenches into any maintainers efficacy.

The Noco strategy of only kicking back on when battery voltage is brought back down to 12.587 or 12. 697v is not a bad one, nor is it ideal.

If the battery is held at too high a float voltage, it will use more water, and the 'gassing voltage' also changes with each battery and its temperature, so blanket statements to appease the ignorant, do only that.
Too high a float voltage will do more than use water, but cause positive plate degradation.

So If one cannot tune their float charger to the exact voltage their battery requires, perhaps it is better to just let the charger kick back on when voltage either falls naturally through self discharge to 12.68 or abouts, or with the assistance of parasitic draw, ort both combined, can be better than holding that specific battery at too high, or too low of a float voltage.

its a more than adequate, one size fits most, algorithm.

If one Knows their battery manufacturers specific float voltage recommendation, and is willing to adjust it up or down, with battery temperature, then perhaps one's battery would benefit with an Adjustable voltage power supply. One can get such an item, sometimes called an LED power supply, rated at 30 amps output for ~ 25$, but the little voltage adjustment potentiometer is only rated for 50 cycles, and it is possible if one hooks it to a well depleted and healthy battery, it might output more than 30 amps, and release its magic smoke.

The better adjustable voltage power supplies, for battery charging, have 'constant current limiting' on overload, and a well depleted battery is an overload.

If one were trying to figureout the perfect float voltage for their specific battery, and not just trusting the specs the manufacturers publish, they would use a power supply to not only insure the battery was indeed fully charged, but then use an ammeter and a voltmeter, and lower the voltage to the point that nearly zero point zero amps flow into or out of the battery, when the 0.00 has the + and the - flashing on and off.

And when one discerns that exact specific perfect float voltage, know that it is only applicable for that exact battery at that exact battery temperature, and will change slightly, as the battery ages. It will also change if the amount of parasitic draw changes, as does the self discharge change with battery temperature.

Like anything, perfect float can be taken to extremes of ideal, and ignorance is bliss.

Noco's strategy is more of a one size fits most applications, more than good enough.

Adding a battery temp sensor and whatever hardware and software needed to manipulate voltage, to achieve the ideal float voltage, would still require it match closely with that specific battery, and the sealed flooded, regular flooded, and AGM, all will be different in terms of ideal, with some AGMs being closer to flooded than others.

Do not be afraid to try the AGM setting on a flooded battery. My Schumacher floats AGMS at 13.6v vs flooded at 13.2v. It also tends to stay below 15 volts on teh AGM setting where on flooded it will sometimes go into the 17's.

I only use it, opposed to my more precise charging equipment, when there is a chance it will rain, or grow legs, and I still do not trust it.

If one only checks voltage, they will not know if their Noco is still charging, or if it is waiting for battery voltage to fall back to ~12.58 or 12.69( agm), before kicking back on and bringing the battery back upto 13.x or 14.x volts, at which point it will shut off again.

 

[gathermewool]

I like it but I don’t. I’ve observed this too.

I’ve seen it sit like that to 12.6V. It takes so long before anything happens (unless you have a parasitic draw), you won’t usually see it switch modes.

The reality Is, this is an auto battery, not a $50k data center UPS. The end user has no real hood objective standard for state of health. Thus it WILL be replaced every so often. So remind out the very last bit of energy or life isn’t really the calculus.

Because this sits at a lower voltage most of the time, there’s less voltage induced stress on every electronic part that is exposed to that mains voltage. This will mean longer life for all the critical parts. While a marginal life or energy reduction due to the charging profile may be the reality, it’s splitting hairs and not
Important to a typical user.

Would you consider your average BITOGER an average user? I, for one, look for ways to optimize and better maintain my stuff with as little effort as possible.

I don’t care what NOCO says, maintaining a battery at such a low float voltage is not conducive to a long life.

I disagree that maintaining an APPROPRIATELY high voltage cause any more wear on components, most of which are off while the car is being charged. Besides, the alternator puts out 14.X VDC all the time. If you’re referring to equalizing charge voltages, then maybe, though I doubt it.

 

[gathermewool]

I do own a 5A power supply that I occasionally use for charging the batteries. I set it for 14.4VDC (if that equates to < 5A that is) for my flooded battery until amperage stops lowering, then reduce down to around 13.9VDC. At this float voltage the amperage is nil and on a battery with very little parasitic draw (eg disconnected) it will shut off (zero amps).

I don’t have a battery temp sensor, but every battery I’ve owned has been cool to the touch, even if it’s slightly gassing at higher voltages. This indication is corroborated using an IR gun.

/

So, I have the means to properly top off and maintain a battery; however, I like the fact that I can set and forget it with these smart chargers.

In comparison to the NOCO, my CTEK Will maintain ~14.4VDC for much longer, usually overnight for a moderately depleted battery. The battery in my Forester is experiencing an intermittent high parasitic draw or something that it causing it to deplete to <12VDC in a few days time. The alternator is fine.

 

[wrcsixeight]

YOur Noco does not have a float voltage. It stops charging, and waits until battery voltage falls to 12.xx volts, before restarting.

Your noted' float' voltage, apparently was just when it was still waiting for battery voltage to drop to a level at which it trigger it on again.

Perhaps if you checked it 5 hours later it would have kicked back on and had the voltage you measure at 13.58v being fedr 0.5 amps of current, and you;d be happy. and an hour after that perhaps it would be at 14.1v and youd be freaking out that it is floating too high.

Seeing as how ideal float voltage is temperature dependent, and varies among different batteries, they have chosen this on/off voltage yo yo strategy to keep the battery at high states of charge, as opposed to a regular float voltage, which might be acceptable for certain batteries in a certain temperature range, and not acceptable, or less than ideal, or some degree inbetween, when outside those ranges.

You dont like it.

Use another charger then.

If I were wanting to keep an unused battery in tip top shape I would insure it was truly fully charged, then have a timer power a adjustable power supply set to 14.4v for 5 minutes a day, or for 15 minutes once a week, or something similar depending on the expected average battery temperature and degree of self discharge/ of that specific battery.

But since that requires all sorts of effort and expense, the Noco genius 1 just kicking back on when battery voltage falls to 12.69v or whatever, can achieve something very similar for under 25$ in a set it and forget ignorance is bliss approach that strangely appeals to so many otherwise OCD bitogers who have no issues wasting time picking stones from tire treads.

I find when i float my batteries for extended periods, when I do cycle them again they behave lazily. Poor voltage retention considering amp hours consumed under x amount of load. This poor voltage retention after a long time floating, improves after a discharge/ recharge cycle

So through experience I will cycle the battery which does not need to be cycled as it then performs better when i do need it.

The perfectly treated battery, will still age out.
I intend mine to deliver and receive many hundreds of KWH before they age out.

I don't consider a long time being held at a single float voltage to be a good thing even on a battery held around 77f at the manufacturer specified float voltage.
It's not as bad as letting it sit for months under 80% charged, but not as good as just higher voltage blasts for a few minutes a day/week/month to keep it topped up.

If one has no issues disconnecting the ground cable in their specific vehicle, then self discharge over colder winter months is so little as to not be much of a concern. Insure a true full charge, disconnect, and no worries.

Winter Battery Storage & Self Discharge Characteristics - Marine How To

December 11, 2012 After having a discussion with one of my customers, about leaving his battery charger running on-board all winter, a practice I am certainly not a huge fan of, and one his boat yard specifically prohibits, I decided to venture into this article.

marinehowto.com

 

[gathermewool]

Speaking of which, how many stone in tire treads IS acceptable? Inquiring minds want to know!

 

[JHZR2]

In comparison to the NOCO, my CTEK Will maintain ~14.4VDC for much longer, usually overnight for a moderately depleted battery. The battery in my Forester is experiencing an intermittent high parasitic draw or something that it causing it to deplete to

using “data” from a vehicle that is experiencing a parasitic draw like that isn’t really acceptable. Additionally, the thresholds for a non-controllable charger may vary from charger to charger and algorithm to algorithm. Since you don’t set Ah (nor do you typically know it accurately for an SLI battery), it can’t determine a capacity-based charge truncation. Truncation at current that is 0.1*Ah vs 0.05*Ah can be hours. Since a charger doesn’t know the Ah value, it probably just sets a single value, and if too low, may never be reached on a big battery.

Would you consider your average BITOGER an average user? I, for one, look for ways to optimize and better maintain my stuff with as little effort as possible.

I don’t care what NOCO says, maintaining a battery at such a low float voltage is not conducive to a long life.

I disagree that maintaining an APPROPRIATELY high voltage cause any more wear on components, most of which are off while the car is being charged. Besides, the alternator puts out 14.X VDC all the time. If you’re referring to equalizing charge voltages, then maybe, though I doubt it.

Frankly, I consider folks making assumptions on what is optimal, without any real data, and then changing out batteries in a few years for peace of mind, to be folly. This isn’t a data center or nuclear submarine. Heck, folks use their batteries for SLI, which means thst last fraction of an Ah is practically irrelevant.

What one is generally trying to do is fend off sulfation of the battery. That means keep it at 100% SOC. Floating the battery above that just increases corrosion, and, since in a vehicle there are other components thst are always on, it adds stress on circuits that have electrolytic caps and other components that have a time at voltage degradation. So while someone is trying to pack the last tenth of an Ah that they won’t use, they’re corroding the battery faster, and adding voltage induced stress to everything else in the vehicle that sees constant 12v. If you’re really concerned about long term maintenance of a vehicle, not A-R maintenance of a battery, that may come into consideration….

 

[92saturnsl2]

I had a chance to monitor my Genius 2 on a recent charge, sort of rudimentary with no data logging, but helpful nonetheless.

Power went out all night recently and I keep a 12V group 31 deep cycle to use with an inverter for powering small(er) stuff. It ran a pedestal fan all night and it was at 12.5V when the power came back on in the morning. That should equate to about 85% SOC given the ambient temp.

Obviously this is a small charger for the battery size, but it performed like I expected it to. Spent about 2-3 hours on the second and third light (flashing red LED), and voltage was about 14.0 - 14.3V during that period. When the flashing green light came on, it stayed flashing for about 10 hours, and I observed between 13.51V and 13.7V during that period. When the green light turned solid, I measured 13.0V with the charger connected. After removing the charger and letting the surface charge dissipate for an hour and a half, I had 12.72V at the battery, which seems appropriate for full capacity at that temperature. I'm happy with it.

 

[rondhol]

This guy open up both CTEK5 AND NOCO5, he concluded that the build quality, components, and value of NOCO5 is way ahead than CTEK. He constantly get repair orders of CTEK and often caused by shorted circuit from water condensation in humid UK weather, broken switches, diodes, chip, and capacitors.





Yes, CTEK5 is the best in advertisement but cheaply build. Both are still overpriced but the best in the market. Thermal stress on CTEK is also a big factor why it is not reliable.

$15 Lidl and Aldi chargers turn out to be smart and much better than Amazon unknow generic chinese 5A charger that is unfiltered and radiates tons of RF dangerous radiation, and blast on 5 A continuously.

The best charger is the one that keep at fully charged without overcharging 12.6-12.8V. Especially for AGM that is more sensitive to overcharging than undercharging.

NOCO5 also back to full 5A when the voltage drop below 12.5V and keep in maintenance mode after power outages

 

[Jetronic]

All my battery chargers use a different float strategy

The GYS 3A floating charger pushes 13.8V, iot's an IUoU charger with 14.3V or 14.8V user selectable absorption voltage.

The VMF 4A stops and monitors voltage. 14.4/14.8V absorption voltage

And the autoXS 5A pushes 0.07A until the float voltage goes up to 15.1V.

 

[billt460]

I just bought 2, Noco Genius 1 chargers. I think for the money, (just about the same price as a Battery Tender Jr.), they offer a lot more. They have 3 settings, 1.) Regular lead acid, 2.) AGM, 3.) Lithium Ion. As far as how they work this is what Noco says:

"The blinking green LED is showing the charger is in the Optimization portion of the charge. This can last for up to 48 hours. It happens right after the initial charge is complete, and anytime during Maintenance when the charger is 'topping' the battery off.

This is a low current trickle charge that fully saturates the battery, repopulates the ions to the plates, and mixes the electrolyte bringing up the specific gravity. A good analogy is it's like pouring a beer into a glass. You fill the cup and then have to wait for the foam to go down before you can pour more beer into the glass. Then let the foam settle and you can add a little more, and so on.

The charger will periodically provide ongoing optimization and help maintain the voltage level of the battery, and the green 100% LED will flash again during these cycles".

https://no-co.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360053252193-The-Green-LED-is-flashing-Is-the-charge-done-#:~:text=The%20blinking%20green%20LED%20is,'topping'%20the%20battery%20off.

The "pour beer in a glass" analogy sounds like a good description. (Perhaps wrcsixeight can chime in here?) The AGM battery in my Jeep Grand Cherokee stayed in, "optimization mode" for over 24 hours, before it went to a solid green LED indicator, indicating a fully charged battery. And that battery is only a couple months old.

With that said, I never topped off the charge after I bought it, or before I installed it. Which may have had something to do with it remaining in "optimization mode" for an entire day. Perhaps it had, "a lot more ions to repopulate", and had to wait for, "more foam to settle in the glass", so to speak.

I just wired in the second Noco Genius 1 into my 2018 Toyota Camry yesterday, and plugged it in at 1:00 PM. (A little over 11 hours ago). It started blinking with a pulsating red LED, indicating it was applying a maximum charge. I noticed when I checked a few minutes ago, that it is now in the blinking green, "optimization mode" as well.

Mind you the Toyota battery is lead acid, and original, (5 years old). It will be interesting to see how long it takes to attain a full charge..... Or even if it does. My take on this whole deal is the Noco Genius 1 appears to offer a lot more "bang for the buck", than the Battery Tender Jr. does. It has no such selection for different batteries. And only goes from charging to, "Float Mode".

That's not badmouthing it. It's just saying the Noco Genius 1 offers a bit more sophisticated charging for the same money.

 

[JHZR2]

I just bought 2, Noco Genius 1 chargers. I think for the money, (just about the same price as a Battery Tender Jr.), they offer a lot more. They have 3 settings, 1.) Regular lead acid, 2.) AGM, 3.) Lithium Ion. As far as how they work this is what Noco says:

"The blinking green LED is showing the charger is in the Optimization portion of the charge. This can last for up to 48 hours. It happens right after the initial charge is complete, and anytime during Maintenance when the charger is 'topping' the battery off.

This is a low current trickle charge that fully saturates the battery, repopulates the ions to the plates, and mixes the electrolyte bringing up the specific gravity. A good analogy is it's like pouring a beer into a glass. You fill the cup and then have to wait for the foam to go down before you can pour more beer into the glass. Then let the foam settle and you can add a little more, and so on.

The charger will periodically provide ongoing optimization and help maintain the voltage level of the battery, and the green 100% LED will flash again during these cycles".

https://no-co.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360053252193-The-Green-LED-is-flashing-Is-the-charge-done-#:~:text=The%20blinking%20green%20LED%20is,'topping'%20the%20battery%20off.

The "pour beer in a glass" analogy sounds like a good description. (Perhaps wrcsixeight can chime in here?) The AGM battery in my Jeep Grand Cherokee stayed in, "optimization mode" for over 24 hours, before it went to a solid green LED indicator, indicating a fully charged battery. And that battery is only a couple months old.

With that said, I never topped off the charge after I bought it, or before I installed it. Which may have had something to do with it remaining in "optimization mode" for an entire day. Perhaps it had, "a lot more ions to repopulate", and had to wait for, "more foam to settle in the glass", so to speak.

I just wired in the second Noco Genius 1 into my 2018 Toyota Camry yesterday, and plugged it in at 1:00 PM. (A little over 11 hours ago). It started blinking with a pulsating red LED, indicating it was applying a maximum charge. I noticed when I checked a few minutes ago, that it is now in the blinking green, "optimization mode" as well.

Mind you the Toyota battery is lead acid, and original, (5 years old). It will be interesting to see how long it takes to attain a full charge..... Or even if it does. My take on this whole deal is the Noco Genius 1 appears to offer a lot more "bang for the buck", than the Battery Tender Jr. does. It has no such selection for different batteries. And only goes from charging to, "Float Mode".

That's not badmouthing it. It's just saying the Noco Genius 1 offers a bit more sophisticated charging for the same money.

The pouring beer in a glass analogy is a good one, but here’s the deal: if you try to add more with an eye dropper vs pouring straight, it will take longer.

Lead acid batteries and cars in general get short circuits and can burn. So chargers often have a timer to fault out in case of this.

So if you have a big undercharged agm (alternators don’t charge fully), and you top it up with just a drip, then it will take a long time.

The beauty of the 1A NoCo chargers is that on a fully charged system they can keep it topped up. The issue is that they can only give 1A max. For my vehicles that are left in places with no supervision, I’d prefer to limit the ontime and ability to put out lots of current should something fail. Other situations warrant more capable chargers.

 

[billt460]

The pouring beer in a glass analogy is a good one, but here’s the deal: if you try to add more with an eye dropper vs pouring straight, it will take longer.

So..... Is the Genius 1 is basically using the "eyedropper approach", because it is only 1 amp full bore, and just a few milliamps when it's, "topping off"?

Also, because alternators do not fully charge, can I expect the Genius 1 to go back to "optimum charge mode", (blinking green LED), as soon as I park it after driving it, and plug it in again? This assuming it was indicating fully charged with a solid green LED when I unplugged it?