Nickel vs Copper anti-seize

[ford46guy]

Originally Posted by flanso
My neighbor, a technical salesman for Dow Corning, told me that anti-seize should contain only metals that are dissimilar to the ones that you are trying to keep from seizing. He gave me a 4 ounce sample tube; I think I still have some of it and that was 40 years ago.


So what would stop a steel bolt in a steel sleeve from seizing? Nothing

 

[splinter]

Originally Posted by bdcardinal
Motorcraft Nickel Anti Seize This is the anti-seize Ford recommends.
Oftentimes while using an anti-seize I'll need a dielectric grease.

Do you stock a Motorcraft product your techs request frequently?

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by splinter
Oftentimes while using an anti-seize I'll need a dielectric grease.

Say what?

 

[92saturnsl2]

I've always used copper, only because I didn't know there was a better alternative. Seems to work well enough on everything I've used it on like spark plug threads.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted by tom slick
Originally Posted by Linctex
Originally Posted by borgward
How do these compare to a Molybdenum disulfide paste? I have used Never-Seize brand for years. A little dab will do you. There is no comparison between it and the Permatex ANTI-SEIZE LUBRICANT Tom Slick posted a picture of above. Great on things that get hot like exhaust manifold nuts and bolts.The Molybdenum paste is certified for nuclear use. Be careful with anything requiring a lot of torque as it is so slick that you turn the fastener more times, stretching the bold and causing failure.


I have been working on Pratt & Whitney and Allison/Rolls-Royce turbine engines for 30 years.

The burner can supports and igniters get nickel anti-seize. These fasteners are in the hot section, but NOT within the "exhaust stream" itself

Fasteners that ARE in the "exhaust stream" do indeed get Molybdenum Disulfide (Moly B) paste.


When I worked on turbines GE spec'd Milk of Magnesia for igniters. I don't remember what was spec'd by Allison. Have you seen Milk of Magnesia used on anything?


Yes, probably before the ceramic based compounds which are also very good with stainless subjected to high temps.

 

[George7941]

Here is a tip. If a can of anti-seize dries out, just add some ATF (or any light oil) and stir thoroughly. I had a couple of cans dry out years ago and am still using them after adding ATF.

 

[borgward]

Which of the anti-seize compounds keep sparkplugs from seizing in aluminum cylinder heads and also allow you to torque the plugs to spec with out being so slippery that you make too many rotations and strip out the aluminum threads. I use NEVER-SEEZE Molybdenum paste but never torque to spec as it is so slippery that by the time the plug is torqued to spec, it has rotated too many times and is tightened too much.

Is there a ratio of torque w/Molybdenum paste to specified torque?

 

[atikovi]

Originally Posted by borgward
Which of the anti-seize compounds keep sparkplugs from seizing in aluminum cylinder heads and also allow you to torque the plugs to spec with out being so slippery that you make too many rotations and strip out the aluminum threads. I use NEVER-SEEZE Molybdenum paste but never torque to spec as it is so slippery that by the time the plug is torqued to spec, it has rotated too many times and is tightened too much.

Is there a ratio of torque w/Molybdenum paste to specified torque?


I use the stuff in my picture. Spark plugs with a gasket, maybe 1 more turn after finger tight. Without gasket, 1/16th to 1/8 turn. Don't need no torque wrench for plugs.

 

[Kestas]

Originally Posted by flanso
My neighbor, a technical salesman for Dow Corning, told me that anti-seize should contain only metals that are dissimilar to the ones that you are trying to keep from seizing.

I see no basis for that advice. Most important is that the metal flakes are softer than the threaded structure.

 

[eddy21]

The problem with Copper is that it is a high valence metal, so it will dilute a significant lesser valence metal.

Its called Galvanic Corrosion

Copper should only be used on metal to metal threads like the header studs, were there is contact with aluminum steer away from copper, use alu anti seize or graphite based.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by eddy21
The problem with Copper is that it is a high valence metal, so it will dilute a significant lesser valence metal.

What does that mean? Copper is valence I or II, aluminum is III.

 

[doitmyself]

The never ending debate. Snagglefoot, your thread confirms that Permatex o.k.'s the use of either silver or copper antiseize for plugs in aluminum heads, with no recommendation of their nickel product for this use. And, remember that the silver colored aluminum product contains copper also.

The galvanic corrosion argument always perplexed me with these antiseize debates....no copper for aluminum applications vs. what Permatex advocates. As does their recommendation to not adjust torque values (response below).

This thread really delved into esoteric anti-seize and I wonder if they are appropriate for spark plugs....oh yea, then we get into the plug mfg. recommendations, LOL.

 

[willbur]

Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
Here is some correspondence from Permatex that I copied from an E mail. Also are some info sheets provided by Permatex.


I note with great interest item #6 under directions for use for each type of the Permatex Antiseize

6. Reassemble parts using normal torque values. So much for reducing torque when assembling parts. Everybody advocates doing so and it is intuitive a compound that reduces friction requires a reduction in torque to avoid overtightening a fastener( or a spark plug or wheel lugnut). Confusing

 

[borgward]

Originally Posted by willbur

6. Reassemble parts using normal torque values. So much for reducing torque when assembling parts. Everybody advocates doing so and it is intuitive a compound that reduces friction requires a reduction in torque to avoid overtightening a fastener( or a spark plug or wheel lugnut). Confusing


That may be true for that specific Permatex product but I can guarantee you that if you torque to spec with NEVER-ZEEZE Molybdenum disufide you will definitely stretch the bolt too much and may experience failure. May or not be true with other antiseize products. Would be nice to know what kind of factor to use when torquing things. 1/8 turn is probably fine for sparkplugs, but I cringe at the thought of torquing anything to 100, 150, etc ft/lb specs.

 

[willbur]

Originally Posted by borgward
Originally Posted by willbur

6. Reassemble parts using normal torque values. So much for reducing torque when assembling parts. Everybody advocates doing so and it is intuitive a compound that reduces friction requires a reduction in torque to avoid overtightening a fastener( or a spark plug or wheel lugnut). Confusing


That may be true for that specific Permatex product but I can guarantee you that if you torque to spec with NEVER-ZEEZE Molybdenum disufide you will definitely stretch the bolt too much and may experience failure. May or not be true with other antiseize products. Would be nice to know what kind of factor to use when torquing things. 1/8 turn is probably fine for sparkplugs, but I cringe at the thought of torquing anything to 100, 150, etc ft/lb specs.


I dunno. Aluminum, graphite. copper and nickel are all the same elements in all brands. You mention a moly based product- a specialized antiseize. Not in widespread use like these three Permatex products. The general idea is that a well known manufacturer recommends "normal" torque for typical antiseize, contrary to widespread belief/practice. The idea is it reduces friction and maybe more so in the moly product, but still no reduction in torque. I reduce torque but this is confusing. Wonder how many heads have been or will be damaged if this advice is followed for spark plug installation?

 

[OilUzer]

.

 

[slybunda]

Is the ceramic grease people use for brake work any good? Usually goes by the name ceratec.

 

[eddy21]

Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by eddy21
The problem with Copper is that it is a high valence metal, so it will dilute a significant lesser valence metal.

What does that mean? Copper is valence I or II, aluminum is III.

From Wally Hartung, an aluminum industry metallurgist, warning about using a copper-based anti-sieze.

In a galvanic corrosion situation involving aluminum and steel, we're not worried about the steel. The aluminum is the sacrificial metal and will corrode preferentially, protecting the steel. The presence of water is absolutely necessary for the reaction to occur.

Plated steel bolts (plated with either cadmium or zinc) will afford some protection to the aluminum, but only as long as the plating lasts. It's being used up as it sacrifices itself to protect the aluminum. As soon as the plating is used up, the sacrifice of the aluminum parts to the steel will begin.

The white powdery coating on one of the bolts looks a lot like aluminum oxide. Guess what part is really getting eaten up. That's right, the aluminum case.

Now if you want to really see aluminum go to pieces, get copper involved. Copper eats up aluminum in a situation of dissimilar metals with water involved. Copper based anti-seize should NEVER be used in contact with, or where it can get in contact with aluminum. Use the aluminum powder anti-seize, always.

 

[CarbonSteel]

In a former life, I worked in the petro-chemical world and we used Fel-Pro Hi-Temp C-100 Molybdenum Disulfide Anti-Seize everywhere. Some of the ethylene furnaces would reach temperatures that could melt many metals, but the stud bolts would break free every time.

I can remember breaking a 18" chlorine header apart that had been in operation about 10 years. The B7 nuts were so corroded they had lost at least 25% of the surface area. I broke them free with a 24" pipe wrench and there was still anti-seize on the threads.

You could spread a drop of this stuff between the planets and have some to spare. I have a can of it from 1983 that is still over half full.

 

[ron350]

2015_PSD what is the color and consistency of that Fel-Pro C-100?