4WD
$50 site donor 2024
Refer to Molakules comment
As I have stated before - Tig has done 40 years of 10k OCI’s and that must be dozens of formula changes …
I really don’t buy the exaggerations of “problems solved” here lately …
New M1 EP ("Triple Action Formula") Formulations : Reduced Esters ?
- Thread starter ChrisD46
- Start date
As I have stated before - Tig has done 40 years of 10k OCI’s and that must be dozens of formula changes …
I really don’t buy the exaggerations of “problems solved” here lately …
- Joined
- May 24, 2023
- Messages
- 130
@buster
It is noteworthy to mention that the recently introduced ESP 5W-30 variant (currently offered in Europe) features a unique additive formulation and does not utilize molybdenum compounds. This novel ingredient, which may have been previously recognized but remains shrouded in uncertainty, could represent a state-of-the-art advancement in tribology - TRIS(BRANCHED-ALKYL) BORATE or orthoboric acid tri(C=3-12)alkyl ester (improved polyborate ester compositions for use in lubricating oils to inhibit wear and oxidation)
It is noteworthy to mention that the recently introduced ESP 5W-30 variant (currently offered in Europe) features a unique additive formulation and does not utilize molybdenum compounds. This novel ingredient, which may have been previously recognized but remains shrouded in uncertainty, could represent a state-of-the-art advancement in tribology - TRIS(BRANCHED-ALKYL) BORATE or orthoboric acid tri(C=3-12)alkyl ester (improved polyborate ester compositions for use in lubricating oils to inhibit wear and oxidation)
SammyChevelleTypeS3
$50 site donor 2023
I have started to wonder if there are some issues being created by the fuel blends many of us have been forced to use , these IMHO foolish, wasteful, even needless gasoline blends , I mean these with ethanol...? I know ethanol wreaked havoc on many small engines we saw n repaired thru my brother in laws small engine repair shop for years. Things that we had not seen much until the introduction of the ethanol. He got to the point he was guilty to charge folks to keep fixing their same issues. So he would try to educate on how to maintain them better. Thru use of ethanol fuel additives , fuel stabilizers and for the winter storage etc... He would even keep additives and stabilizers etc on hand to show them the products they could buy there or other places. He often encouraged them to find and use 100% pure gasoline which is becoming harder and harder to find now. I had to run that fuel thru my last Chevelle small block 400 or it was hell to get it to start. It cranked right up with the 100% pure so it only got ethanol once or twice due to emergency low fuel away from home. Now honestly a lot of those problems - the swollen leaking diphragms , gaskets, plugged and gunked up filters and carbs or plugged up fuel lines etc... are not as much a problem these days for several reasons. Many parts makers realized the issues and started making ethanol safe parts. Things like repair kits for lawn equipment , replacement fuel lines to complete carb kits for muscle cars that have new material gaskets , o rings , diaphragms etc... that can stand up to being in service with fuels that contain ethanol. I wonder if the ethanol fuel affects things differently inside of these direct injection engines to the point there could be a goop, gunk or slime material created and ending up in places like piston ring areas and other spots due to some type of reaction between the ethanol fuel and the oils being used under certain pressures/heat. Maybe it does not even matter what oils we use because the ethanol affects them all the same? Or NOT! Maybe one or more of our chemist , mechanical or industrial engineers or even dealer techs or some race mechainics who see the insides of many engines often can give their insights.
Makes me wonder since some claim most modern day oils to be so advanced and a lot alike. One as good as the other? So how are some still seeing this gunk and in some cases the varnish? Things we do not expect to be found in well maintained engines by the people who do their own proper maintenence by the book? At least the HPL oils and cleaners are clearly being able to remove this from engines to owners surprises when inspecting filters. Can this goop and varnish be some new thing the ethanol fuel is creating regardless what oil a person uses? Or could it be that some of the newer , more advanced oils can maybe not prevent but vastly reduce because this varnish is not found in all engines even though the goop seems to be found more often?
Sorry if this turns out to be like the subject from H___ that keeps turning up , the "Thick vs Thin" one. I missed it if the ethanol questions have been kicked all over the place here already.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
I think GDI is the biggest issue, not ethanol. You end up with more fuel in the oil, and, they produce soot.
MolaKule
Staff member
Yes, I think we mentioned it here (lube chemistry is just downright exciting!
) :"Addendum: I would be leaning more toward the borated 2-hydroxyalkyl (or borated 2-hydroxyalkenyl) imidazoline chemistry because it is a "Multi-Functional" additive, in that is it accomplishes more than one function such as: an ashless Friction modifier, Corrosion Inhibitor, and Rust Inhibitor.
More Multi-Functional chemistry is being used in DI additive packages since different chemistry components don't have to be used. While the resulting molecule is more complex, its functional capabilities cover a wider spectrum of protection and performance attributes."
M1 EP vs. M1 AFE ?
I have used AFE and didn't notice any fuel economy gains. If you are 70% severe duty then the extra $2 for the EP formula is what I recommend and you can safely extend the OCI more safely with the EP to make up the price difference in that AFE.
bobistheoilguy.com
Is Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 a better oil than Mobil 1 ESP 0W-30 at cleaning? Does 1 oil have a better High Solvency?
SammyChevelleTypeS3
$50 site donor 2023
Yeah I guess the higher pressure that must? be needed to inject the fuel into that GDI set up is the main cause that no computer reset can fix. I have heard that the newer Honda engines are not having those issues but as of yet have not read or found any articles that explain what they possibly changed. Even if I do, I have decided they have lost a life long customer. I am already looking at Toyotas for the next one we are gonna buy. Honda screwed up big and will not even acknowledge it.
SammyChevelleTypeS3
$50 site donor 2023
See , we know that is not the case with your machines so it was surprising you found that goop in filter. I wonder if HPL and others like them have analyzed that stuff in their on going creation and improvements to their products. Almost certainly they would have.
SammyChevelleTypeS3
$50 site donor 2023
When you went to a run of the HPL, did you use the cleaner or went straight to the oil?
Was also wondering what most experienced with the time line MILES that it took for the oil color to change?
I am on the first run of HPL at about 2200 mi and can not get over how it is staying almost like it looked when
poured in the engine. Seems to be a top quality product for sure.
I figured there was something going on because the VOA looked bereft of additive for an oil with so many Euro approvals.
Do you have any thoughts on the effectiveness, or lack thereof, of Castrol’s Ti additive or Ravenol using the Vanlube W-324 in some oils?
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Yes, but the HEMI's are pretty dirty running engines.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
I went straight to HPL. I don't monitor oil colour, the HEMI's make it dark very quickly.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
From the limited information one can glean from Mobil's website (and who knows what spin is in place there), yes, I'd be inclined to think the FS 0W-40 is better at cleaning.
I will not buy anymore ESP and I will take a serious look at the FS 0W-40
thanks OVERKILL
Amusingly, many works related to this "borated ingredient" seem to point to Lubrizol :
https://patents.justia.com/patent/11459520#history
https://patents.justia.com/patent/10774283#history
And the link between Xom & Lubrizol :
https://patents.justia.com/patent/20190024010#history
The latter is rather interesting; looking at the names involved here, it looks very much like an "all-star" team.
Two of those guys lived in my town. I lived in Mullica Hill, NJ for a year a while back. Maybe I'll go knock on his door and ask him about Mobil 1.
j/kWhen I read these patents, it really exemplifies just how much testing goes into these oils, and how carefully balanced oils must be. It's quite a feat to design an oil with so many available ingredients on the market.
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Cleanliness Booster
The lubricating oil composition further includes a cleanliness booster. Cleanliness boosters refer to a broad class of commercially available components used to reduce hard carbonaceous deposits that form on the piston land and groove surfaces of diesel engines due to degradation of the base oil and oil additives under extremely high temperatures. Keeping an engine free of deposits is highly desirable as the deposits in an engine reduce effective heat transfer, contribute to friction, and change the highly engineered clearances of a modern engine which can result is wear. Cleanliness is difficult to achieve in a modern engine oil formulation due to limits placed on ash containing componentry (e.g., overbased detergents) which are used to prevent formation of deposits. These ash limits are in place to reduce blockage of diesel particulate filters and limit the amount of an overbased detergent that may be used in a given engine oil formulation. One method of overcoming this limit is through the use of ashless cleanliness boosters. Some of these materials which are commercially available include alkyl phenol ether polymers, polyisobutylene polymers and ashless detergent chemistries.
As noted above, the compositions in Table 1 are “high ash” compositions. Ash, also called “sulfated ash,” is measured by standard test ASTM D874. High ash content leads to plugging of diesel particulate filters which are used as an emission after treatment device on passenger car diesel vehicles. The diesel particulate filter removes particulate matter or soot from the exhaust gas.
A key North American engine oil specification is the dexos1 specification, which specifically requires sulfated ash to be 1.0% in a lubricant formulation. Neither of the formulations here could meet that specification. That is, each of the above comparative examples 1A and 1B have 1.20% sulfated ash. Ash is typically delivered by the detergent system, which provides cleanliness, and the additional ash is capable of cleaning up the deposits that are caused by friction modifiers (especially high concentrations of friction modifiers like CRFM). Comparative example 1A is a formulation without CRFM and the formulation in Comparative example 1B has been balanced for total ash content but contains a CRFM, which is a detergent stabilized CRFM. Detergent stabilized CRFMs have some advantages in that they are typically less expensive and more potent from an active ingredient perspective.
Instead, the inventive examples 3B-3E in Table 3 provide evidence for the unexpected results that if one combines the cleanliness booster and the dispersant stabilized CRFM with a specific combination of viscosity modifier (hydrogenated isoprene star polymer 7) and one or more of the group of borated succinimide, capped succinimide, succinimide or polyalphaolefin amide alkeneamine dispersant, then one can incorporate a CRFM into a low ash formulation with passing TDi2 results. This result (from inventive examples 3B-3E) was, prior to this application, not only unexpected but also thought to be impossible. That is, conventional thought, prior to the present application, was that a CRFM could not be used in a low ash formulation to obtain a passing TDi2 result.
The lubricating oil composition further includes a cleanliness booster. Cleanliness boosters refer to a broad class of commercially available components used to reduce hard carbonaceous deposits that form on the piston land and groove surfaces of diesel engines due to degradation of the base oil and oil additives under extremely high temperatures. Keeping an engine free of deposits is highly desirable as the deposits in an engine reduce effective heat transfer, contribute to friction, and change the highly engineered clearances of a modern engine which can result is wear. Cleanliness is difficult to achieve in a modern engine oil formulation due to limits placed on ash containing componentry (e.g., overbased detergents) which are used to prevent formation of deposits. These ash limits are in place to reduce blockage of diesel particulate filters and limit the amount of an overbased detergent that may be used in a given engine oil formulation. One method of overcoming this limit is through the use of ashless cleanliness boosters. Some of these materials which are commercially available include alkyl phenol ether polymers, polyisobutylene polymers and ashless detergent chemistries.
As noted above, the compositions in Table 1 are “high ash” compositions. Ash, also called “sulfated ash,” is measured by standard test ASTM D874. High ash content leads to plugging of diesel particulate filters which are used as an emission after treatment device on passenger car diesel vehicles. The diesel particulate filter removes particulate matter or soot from the exhaust gas.
A key North American engine oil specification is the dexos1 specification, which specifically requires sulfated ash to be 1.0% in a lubricant formulation. Neither of the formulations here could meet that specification. That is, each of the above comparative examples 1A and 1B have 1.20% sulfated ash. Ash is typically delivered by the detergent system, which provides cleanliness, and the additional ash is capable of cleaning up the deposits that are caused by friction modifiers (especially high concentrations of friction modifiers like CRFM). Comparative example 1A is a formulation without CRFM and the formulation in Comparative example 1B has been balanced for total ash content but contains a CRFM, which is a detergent stabilized CRFM. Detergent stabilized CRFMs have some advantages in that they are typically less expensive and more potent from an active ingredient perspective.
Instead, the inventive examples 3B-3E in Table 3 provide evidence for the unexpected results that if one combines the cleanliness booster and the dispersant stabilized CRFM with a specific combination of viscosity modifier (hydrogenated isoprene star polymer 7) and one or more of the group of borated succinimide, capped succinimide, succinimide or polyalphaolefin amide alkeneamine dispersant, then one can incorporate a CRFM into a low ash formulation with passing TDi2 results. This result (from inventive examples 3B-3E) was, prior to this application, not only unexpected but also thought to be impossible. That is, conventional thought, prior to the present application, was that a CRFM could not be used in a low ash formulation to obtain a passing TDi2 result.
Here was one of the formulations:
A lubricant composition, consisting of:
10% polyalphaolefin base oil;
64.21% Group III base oil;
5% alkylated naphthalene co-baseoil;
4.99% of supporting additives including antioxidants, detergents, antiwear, antifoam, inorganic friction modifiers and pour point depressants;
6.4% hydrogenated isoprene star polymer
7;1% of a cleanliness booster;0.74% borated PIBSA/PAM dispersant;
3.96% of an ashless, dispersant-stabilized borated friction modifier Including: a tetrahedral borate anion having a boron atom with two bidentate di-oxo ligands both being a linear C18-tartrimide; a first dispersant comprising a conventional ammonium substituted polyisobutenyl succinimide compound having a polyisobutenyl number average molecular weight of 750 to 2,500; a second dispersant comprising an ammonium substituted polyisobutenyl succinimde compound having an N:CO ratio of 1.8 and a polyisobutylenyl number average molecular weight of 750 to 2,500;
A lubricant composition, consisting of:
10% polyalphaolefin base oil;
64.21% Group III base oil;
5% alkylated naphthalene co-baseoil;
4.99% of supporting additives including antioxidants, detergents, antiwear, antifoam, inorganic friction modifiers and pour point depressants;
6.4% hydrogenated isoprene star polymer
7;1% of a cleanliness booster;0.74% borated PIBSA/PAM dispersant;
3.96% of an ashless, dispersant-stabilized borated friction modifier Including: a tetrahedral borate anion having a boron atom with two bidentate di-oxo ligands both being a linear C18-tartrimide; a first dispersant comprising a conventional ammonium substituted polyisobutenyl succinimide compound having a polyisobutenyl number average molecular weight of 750 to 2,500; a second dispersant comprising an ammonium substituted polyisobutenyl succinimde compound having an N:CO ratio of 1.8 and a polyisobutylenyl number average molecular weight of 750 to 2,500;
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