New here because I heard!!

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: txrhino
He told me he used Castrol 30 wt for most if not all initail runs, and has for years. Would a high ZDDP oil have helped, I dunno, my understanding is that it is heat activated, my cam wiped out in under 10 minutes, so go figure.


10 minutes? See right there, I say 800 ppm P vs. 1200 ppm P would NOT kill a cam in 10 minutes. No way. I think this is pure cam metallurgy, lack of proper heat treat.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: txrhino
He told me he used Castrol 30 wt for most if not all initail runs, and has for years. Would a high ZDDP oil have helped, I dunno, my understanding is that it is heat activated, my cam wiped out in under 10 minutes, so go figure.


10 minutes? See right there, I say 800 ppm P vs. 1200 ppm P would NOT kill a cam in 10 minutes. No way. I think this is pure cam metallurgy, lack of proper heat treat.


And this is a topic that is also quite prominent: Poor quality cam cores.

 

[txrhino]

I tend to agree with above particularly in my situation, 800 ppm vs 1200 ppm wouldn't make a difference in 10 minutes, I've thought that all along. Having said that, I still have to run an oil in the motor, so for the warm fuzzy feeling, I'm sticking with VR-1. Metallurgy could definitely be a contributing factor in alot of the stuff you read about, could be a combination of both, who knows.

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: bepperb
I doubt there would be any damage to your engine, and while the zddp/flat tappet thing is blown completely out of proportion here all the time I doubt you would find anyone who would think 300 miles could cause significant wear.

I would look for a 15w-40 or 5w-40 HDEO, like Rotella, if I had that application.

As stated, your other engines should be rollerized. If someone was really mass producing a flat tappet engine in 2000 they should be... well.... we'll leave that one alone. SM is better than SL in 99% of cars. Your jeep is just somewhat unique (which I hope you were shooting for anyway).


He's running an aftermarket cam and I can assume slightly stiffer springs. ZDDP is absolutely important in this case. The ZDDP issue is not blown out of proportion in this scenario. 300 miles is more than enough to have signifigant wear. I've seen guys lose the cam during the 30 minute break-in. Guess what happens to the rest of the engine when the cam goes...

OP, If you have the money, Redline products have a lot of ZDDP. Amsoil ACD is another great oil with the additives you need.

 

[Peted]

Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: bepperb
I doubt there would be any damage to your engine, and while the zddp/flat tappet thing is blown completely out of proportion here all the time I doubt you would find anyone who would think 300 miles could cause significant wear.

I would look for a 15w-40 or 5w-40 HDEO, like Rotella, if I had that application.

As stated, your other engines should be rollerized. If someone was really mass producing a flat tappet engine in 2000 they should be... well.... we'll leave that one alone. SM is better than SL in 99% of cars. Your jeep is just somewhat unique (which I hope you were shooting for anyway).


He's running an aftermarket cam and I can assume slightly stiffer springs. ZDDP is absolutely important in this case. The ZDDP issue is not blown out of proportion in this scenario. 300 miles is more than enough to have signifigant wear. I've seen guys lose the cam during the 30 minute break-in. Guess what happens to the rest of the engine when the cam goes...

OP, If you have the money, Redline products have a lot of ZDDP. Amsoil ACD is another great oil with the additives you need.


I'm guessing most of the guys saying it makes no difference have only driven "camrys" all their lives and have no first hand experience with a high power flat tappet engine. Those people should keep their mouths shut on the topic so they do not give false information to new comers who have just spent $30K on a new engine.

I'm agreeing with GN. You need a certain amount of ZDDP or these types of engines are going to face massive wear. Especially during break in period where most wear takes place. Keep in mind ZDDP is not the Only factor in protecting against wear, but in this application it is a major, if not The major factor.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: peterdes

I'm guessing most of the guys saying it makes no difference have only driven "camrys" all their lives and have no first hand experience with a high power flat tappet engine. Those people should keep their mouths shut on the topic so they do not give false information to new comers who have just spent $30K on a new engine.

I'm agreeing with GN. You need a certain amount of ZDDP or these types of engines are going to face massive wear. Especially during break in period where most wear takes place. Keep in mind ZDDP is not the Only factor in protecting against wear, but in this application it is a major, if not The major factor.


Guessing is always a good way to establish facts and the truth!!

I know for a fact an infamous cam company has gone out of business for quality issues.........I know for a fact people never really know WHY their cams khrapped, but they sure as heck blame the oil.

No one in this thread is telling the OP he will be perfectly fine running low P oil. But if you read the entire thread, he broke his cam in properly and he ran a 10W-40 for 300 miles. I doubt a properly broken in street cam will wipe in 300 miles with a 10W-40 even if the P is 800. In fact data shows this!

Show us some false information given to newcomers.

 

[Cup of Joe]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
1 gallon, 30 gallon, 55 gallon, 275 gallon


I buy by the case, I still have about 6 gallons maybe 5.5 I'd have to check. There is a big gap between a 4 gallon case and a 30 gallon barrel.

 

[josie_wales]

Ok,Ok I spent $3000+ on the engine,jobbing out the machine work and doing the assembly myself. $30,000+ for the whole Cj but everything is new but with a lot of old designs such as Currie 9" front and rears. I would like to thank all of you for the input. I really believe from what eveybody has said and not said my BEST option is either Redline or Royal Purple oil. All major oil companies (Shell,Mobil,etc.)will be slaves to the Federal Government. When told to bend over they will but we will end up getting it. I wrote to STP also they are very slick in not saying anything. Wow I hate that with a passion!! Some how from all the feedback I feel I can trust Redline. Thanks again!!

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: peterdes

I'm guessing most of the guys saying it makes no difference have only driven "camrys" all their lives and have no first hand experience with a high power flat tappet engine. Those people should keep their mouths shut on the topic so they do not give false information to new comers who have just spent $30K on a new engine.

I'm agreeing with GN. You need a certain amount of ZDDP or these types of engines are going to face massive wear. Especially during break in period where most wear takes place. Keep in mind ZDDP is not the Only factor in protecting against wear, but in this application it is a major, if not The major factor.


Guessing is always a good way to establish facts and the truth!!

I know for a fact an infamous cam company has gone out of business for quality issues.........I know for a fact people never really know WHY their cams khrapped, but they sure as heck blame the oil.

No one in this thread is telling the OP he will be perfectly fine running low P oil. But if you read the entire thread, he broke his cam in properly and he ran a 10W-40 for 300 miles. I doubt a properly broken in street cam will wipe in 300 miles with a 10W-40 even if the P is 800. In fact data shows this!

Show us some false information given to newcomers.


I've seen it time after time after time in the Turbo Regal world. It's one of the rare cars that have a very large number in the 10s still running a flat tappet cam. So we have a large number of guys with flat tappets, aftermarket cams, and stiffer valvesprings.

While it can be the manufacturer, I've seen too many times a car wipe a quality Comp or Lunati cam with too low of ZDDP but install the same brand and spec cam with the correct oil and be trouble free.

It's irresponsible to tell people they will be fine with low ZDDP. While I agree with stock spring pressures in a car like mine that only ran around 65lbs new and are well broken in, I wouldn't think of breaking a flat tappet in on the wrong oil and continuing to run it that way. Just because one guy gets away with it doesn't mean it should be recommended.

I think Peterdes is correct in saying that most people who recommend this read a lot on the internet but haven't built many engines.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: BuickGN
It's irresponsible to tell people they will be fine with low ZDDP.


I agree in certain applications. Who is saying this? That's what I want to know.

 

[Cup of Joe]

Good choice. You can still drop back to a diesel rated oil in a pinch if you want.

What heads are you using with a $3k budget? Set of machined camel humps?

 

[josie_wales]

Stock 76cc heads.Stainles steel valves,Manley springs. I wanted to have around 9 to 1 compression with flat tops for pump gas.Also hard valve seats for no lead gas. I hate getting gas in drums!

 

[OVERKILL]

My take (however slanted) is this:

What is the logic with retaining a flat-tappet setup when one can convert to roller and completely alleviate the issue; be it an issue of hardening or lack of ZDDP in the oil or a combination of the two?

When the new engine for my buddy's S10 was built, that was one of the first things we made sure was going to be done; the conversion to roller, so that we didn't have to deal with flat tappet break-in, and the risk of wiping a lobe (or two or three...etc).

Just seems like a no-brainer to me when building something new an the fact that you know it is going to be an issue.

 

[Rob_Roy]

Originally Posted By: josie_wales
Ok,Ok I spent $3000+ on the engine,jobbing out the machine work and doing the assembly myself. $30,000+ for the whole Cj but everything is new but with a lot of old designs such as Currie 9" front and rears. I would like to thank all of you for the input. I really believe from what eveybody has said and not said my BEST option is either Redline or Royal Purple oil. All major oil companies (Shell,Mobil,etc.)will be slaves to the Federal Government. When told to bend over they will but we will end up getting it. I wrote to STP also they are very slick in not saying anything. Wow I hate that with a passion!! Some how from all the feedback I feel I can trust Redline. Thanks again!!


The Redline oil will do a fine job, but there are plenty of other options. Assuming you don't use this vehicle during the winter months a 15w40 HDEO would serve you very well.

The 350 Chevy in my camaro has a pretty stout flat tappet cam (0.500"+ lift) with comp. #987 (370 lbs/in) valve springs. It has over 100 quarter mile passes on it with Valvoline VR1 20w50 in the summer and CI4+ rated 15w40 in the spring and fall. This engine get shifted at 6500 RPM and has not been babied. The inside of the engine still looks like the day I put it together.

Some of my friends have "Model A" coupes and roadsters with old school SBC's, I have them running 15w40 HDEO's as well with great results.

 

[josie_wales]

To Overkill: I started building the engine in 1992, That was the easy part. I had to wait for my 81 Cj to fully [censored] out before I started the rebuild. Started stripping and found out the frame was useless. I orded a frame and guess what he went bankrupt and a long court battle started. Its easy to get a frame now but then pretty hard. Yes I would of used a roller then if I knew what I know now. Hindsight is always 100%. But [censored] Rhodes cams and lifters sound so cool!!!!!! Then there was the geometery using Ford 9" axles. From start to end well My wife called it "project way to long". It did make it easy paying for all the parts.

To Rob Roy: I believe you understand you must of been around in the late 60's. Those were the days. I am grateful for all the response I received here. I never knew just how naive I was about oil.

 

[OVERKILL]

'92, wow man, that is one lengthy project! My Capri/Mustang has been off the road for going on 4 years now due to a body transplant and that feels like forever to me.

Unreal!

I agree with your wife

 

[Rob_Roy]

Originally Posted By: josie_wales
To Rob Roy: I believe you understand you must of been around in the late 60's. Those were the days. I am grateful for all the response I received here. I never knew just how naive I was about oil.


Wasn't around for the 60's...70's either. Turning 27 tomorrow!

to the forum, you will learn a lot here.

 

[glen242]

I am using Valvoline VR-1 10W-30 on my 383 rebuild with a CC XE274H flat tappet cam. Broke it in on the VR-1 with a bottle of GM EOS. No problems in three years.

VR-1 ZDDP=0.14/0.13.

Available through NAPA.