New 20 offerings from Amsoil

[CATERHAM]

I didn't say 2.7cP was "very wrong", it's just thicker than necessary. But a VI of 166 is about as low as it gets for a 0W-20 oil.
The combination is an oil that is 25% heavier at temps as warm as room temperature and more than 50% heavier at 0C than for example Toyota's 0W-20. And as much as that is, in reality the difference is likely even greater since the Toyota oil shears about 10% by design.

The point is that Amsoil doesn't offer a 0W-20 oil with a viscosity that auto manufacturers that require that grade specify.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

The point is that Amsoil doesn't offer a 0W-20 oil with a viscosity that auto manufacturers that require that grade specify.


Can you please provide the links for this? Please include all the manufacturers who require 0W-20. Specifications and actual links or scans of the owner manuals. Thanks.

 

[CATERHAM]

As I mentioned it is the Japanese OEM's that have developed their own specifications for the 0W-20 grade although none AFAIK insist on the use of their 0W-20 brand for warranty requirements.

The leaders in this regard would be Toyota/Lexus, Honda/Acura and Subaru with very unique specifications. Highlights of which would be 200+ VI's and 800 ppm of moly. Mazda also have their own 0W-20 brand but I don't know a lot about it.

In NA, EOM makes the oil for Toyota/Lexus.
Idemitsu USA makes it for Honda/Acura Canada and Subaru.
Idemitsu used to make it for Honda USA but resently lost the contract to CoP. In the process the original formulation appears to have been compromised.

There are VOA's posted of these oils.

The following is the Toyota Application Chart as posted by rcy:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...463#Post2143463

 

[Pablo]

Quote:
0W-20 oil with a viscosity that auto manufacturers that require that grade specify.


OK, well post the specifications when you get them.

I have to think such oils are fairly loaded with VII's. Not my idea of a stout oil, but there is certainly more than one way to formulate an XW-20. Amsoil has chosen a path that works.

 

[johnachak]

[/quote]

Thanks - I would disagree a bit. I would say XL is superior to PP and M1. OE is a close comparison, and much less expensive than M1. [/quote]

I havent been able to get OE for $5.00 a qt. I can pick up a 5 qt jug of M1 for $24.00, just about $25 with tax. The Amsoil price lists I got show OE around $6 a qt + shipping. I'm not sure if tax is applicable in NY for Amsoil. If I could get it for the same price as M1 I would try it since it meets the specs for my ford and Chevy.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Pablo

I have to think such oils are fairly loaded with VII's. Not my idea of a stout oil, but there is certainly more than one way to formulate an XW-20. Amsoil has chosen a path that works.

No, you're missing the point. Thicker or "stout" is not better it's just thicker.

Amsoil has chosen not to formulate a light 20wt oil at all.

 

[ltslimjim]

^My friend with a Fit is getting 50 MPG tanks with 0w-20 ASM. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

Quote:

I have to think such oils are fairly loaded with VII's. Not my idea of a stout oil, but there is certainly more than one way to formulate an XW-20. Amsoil has chosen a path that works.

No, you're missing the point. Thicker or "stout" is not better it's just thicker.

Amsoil has chosen not to formulate a light 20wt oil at all.


Not missing the point at all. A VII loaded oil is not a robust oil.

 

[CATERHAM]

Then you're obfuscating the point.

Yes, these OEM (high VI, ultra low vis') 0W-20's likely contain high VII levels but not to the point of excessive shear in service. Both Nippon Oil, the original formulator of the Toyota 0W-20, and Jeff Jetter, American Honda's principal chemist have described their 0W-20 oils as being "very robust". Besides the advantages of dramatically lower viscosity on start-up is what the OEMs want.

But I understand your position. Asmoil doesn't make a light 20wt oil so you push what you have and criticize the OEM oil with an unfounded accusation. It will fly with some but not everyone.

 

[buster]

I agree with CAT here. In fact I posted awhile ago an article from Infineum where they claim low vis oils can be designed to be robust. Amsoil 20 wts are nothing innovative at all. They are just giving you a highly dosed up PAO based oil with a lot if calcium. Nothing that spectacular.

These new 0w20's from Japan are interesting.

 

[addyguy]

OK, I'm wading in maybe where I shouldn't, but Buster and CATERHAM - [censored] are you talking about???

Both OE and XL 0W-20 are 8.3 cst @100C, and are 44cst at 40C. Both the Honda and Toyota 0W-20's are considerably thicker than that - both are closer to 8.8-9.0 cst @100C. I'm not sure about 40C.

And saying an oil is 'thicker' b/c it has a HT/HS value of 2.7 vs. 2.6.....are you guys for real?

Whatever dislike you have for Amsoil is starting to cloud your judgement.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: buster
I agree with CAT here. In fact I posted awhile ago an article from Infineum where they claim low vis oils can be designed to be robust. Amsoil 20 wts are nothing innovative at all. They are just giving you a highly dosed up PAO based oil with a lot if calcium. Nothing that spectacular.

These new 0w20's from Japan are interesting.





That doesn’t make a whole bunch of sense.

There are four families of Amsoil motor oils listed here. Only two of the families are PAO based, each with a different amount of ester, and each with a very different amount of additives. One is a racing oil, the other a long drain oil. The other two families are Group III based, but different additive packages. Generalizations make little sense, but in general, Amsoil, like Redline, decided to make their XW-20 oils on the higher HTHS viscosity side of the SAE 20 RANGE. To make this seem incorrect or improper just seems a little disingenuous. Same goes for making it seem like Amsoil SAE 20 oils are mongo thick on start up or that the Japanese oils are on a whole superior.

I do agree these Japanese oils are interesting. Let’s post up some extended drains.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Then you're obfuscating the point.

Yes, these OEM (high VI, ultra low vis') 0W-20's likely contain high VII levels but not to the point of excessive shear in service. Both Nippon Oil, the original formulator of the Toyota 0W-20, and Jeff Jetter, American Honda's principal chemist have described their 0W-20 oils as being "very robust". Besides the advantages of dramatically lower viscosity on start-up is what the OEMs want.

But I understand your position. Asmoil doesn't make a light 20wt oil so you push what you have and criticize the OEM oil with an unfounded accusation. It will fly with some but not everyone.



Obfuscate? Wow – OK so you jump in here and have no actual specifications to compare to and basically say Amsoil SAE 20 offerings are too thick for some vehicles. Then you back off a bit and basically imply that, well, Amsoil viscosities are OK per NA owner manuals. I wouldn’t necessarily accuse you of obfuscation, more like steering or something

I tend to think the Amsoil start-up viscosities are low enough (OEM Spec is ??) to provide all the low temp protection necessary.

I have never made any “unfounded accusation” about OEM oils. I haven’t seen many/any of these OEM oils used in full OLM OCI’s, let alone extended OCI’s so I think the verdict is still out on these ultralight 20’s.

Frankly, you don’t understand my position. What I don’t understand and I readily admit is your defense of these OEM oils.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: addyguy
OK, I'm wading in maybe where I shouldn't, but Buster and CATERHAM - [censored] are you talking about???
Both OE and XL 0W-20 are 8.3 cst @100C, and are 44cst at 40C. Both the Honda and Toyota 0W-20's are considerably thicker than that - both are closer to 8.8-9.0 cst @100C. I'm not sure about 40C.
And saying an oil is 'thicker' b/c it has a HT/HS value of 2.7 vs. 2.6.....are you guys for real?
Whatever dislike you have for Amsoil is starting to cloud your judgement.

You're making the common mistake of comparing kinematic viscosities of different oil chemistries and you can't do that with even the remotest degree of accuracy. HTHS viscosity amongst other things is the bottom line in accurately comparing the operational viscosities of different oils at normal operating temp's as low as 70C. The following post explains why in considerable detail:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2001169&page=1

I'll respond to Pablo when I have more time.

 

[ltslimjim]

So, are you claiming Amsoil's 20 multi-grades(all of them?) or some in a particular formulation(compared to your preference in question) are an oil 'lacking' in one way or another?

Okay, HT/HS. Good or bad in ASM 0w-20, for instance? Well, that often depends on how you view the quality of the product achieving the 'specs' seen on a sheet, including HT/HS, which stability and fortitude is born out over the duration of it's usage. Are you saying Amsoil's offer here would cause problems, worsen fuel economy, prove incapable of any form of extended drain service, or fail compared to another oil in perhaps a racing app?

In what application, specifically given as an example, is another oil better than Amsoil's ASM, for sake of the conversation, to emphasize what it is you are having issue with?

 

[greenaccord02]

CATERHAM, you're so silly. Don't you read the marketing materials? Everybody knows Amsoil's oils are beyond reproach and are developed from the finest ingredients by the most highly qualified professionals in the world. Why else would they cost so much be so affordable compared all the other synthetics on the market? Because those other oil companies are full of [censored] and are in cahoots with the car companies to ruin your car AND make you broke at the SAME TIME by selling and recommending oil that KILLS your car slowly, by degrees.

I can't believe you would think oil formulated by the car's maker would be better than Amsoil. I mean, it's AMSOIL! Go read the marketing materials, right now. You've obviously been brainwashed by those know-nothing jokers at Mobil, Honda, and Toyota.

 

[Pablo]

I thought we could keep this conversation serious and straight forward. I'm not sure why the clowns have arrived, but they are here.

I never said Amsoil motor oils are beyond reproach. That is NOT what this is about, so don't make the discussion something it isn't.

I'm still waiting for the explanation on how problematic SAE 20 oils with HTHS of 2.7 are. No, he didn't say that, but it WAS implied. The thread is NOT about Japanese oils, so why was it brought up? Oh to simply say Amsoil has CHOSEN to formulate HTHS 2.7 and 2.8 oils and say maybe these oils are not specified for Japanese cars, but no proof of this was provided either. So again - why was this brought up with no counter balance from Caterham?

 

[buster]

The issue is your talking about variation within a specific performance parameter. There are trade-offs with all motor oils specs.

 

[buster]

Amsoil has to design their oils for longer drain intervals. So they are not going to use the required amount of VII to meet the more stringent fuel economy standards.

 

[CATERHAM]

First let me state that Amsoil makes some fine motor oil.
But of their seven 20wt offerings a light 20wt is not one of them.
The reason could be along the lines of what Buster suggests but I'm not going to speculate why.

The fact remains that the Japanese OEMs specify a very light oil in the 0W-20 grade. For example when Exxon Mobil won the contract to formulate the Toyota brand 0W-20 away from Nippon Oil for NA dealers and they had to formulate an oil very much lighter than their own M1 0W-20 and with other significant differences, some very costly like the use of the same Adeka-Saura Organic Moly lube that Nippon used. The end result is the same 214 VI as for the original Nippon Oil made product.

Would it be problematic to run a heavier, lower VI 20wt oil in a vehicle not spec's for it? I don't think so, but then again why would you want to? Where's the benefit? If one is going to deviate away from the specified oil and go with an aftermarket oil, wouldn't you want it to be the same viscosity (not just the grade) that the manufacturer has gone to the trouble of developing?

While the Japanese OEM's make up a large portion of the NA market there is also Ford and Chrysler that has spec'd a HTHS vis 2.6cP 20wt oil for years now. So there's that market as well that Amsoil doesn't make the exact required viscosity. Not a big deal in any way in this case since the Amsoil synthetic oil has a higher VI than the spec'd dino 5W-20 oil making it effectively lighter on start-up anyway.