Is TGMO 0W-20 SN made in Heaven? Part II: high-moly GTL

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
I thought I had read high doses of the older type moly were bad for LSPI? I don't remember now. I would never run the stuff but it sounds like a great oil for a little mixing or top off.

I would disagree that high VI is always a good thing, actually not good for timing chains, but I do like oils loaded with goodies and this one certainly delivers.

Ah, moly is actually good for LSPI prevention. The type of moly doesn't really matter.

How oil affects LSPI

Regarding moly types, trinuclear moly is very potent, working fairly well in smaller doses, but I now realize that it seems to be overhyped.

I recently read a paper on a study with different moly types. I think the conclusion was that the dinuclear moly, which is the most common type of moly made by additive companies, is the best in reducing both friction and wear, as well as in having good synergy with ZDDP. This is probably especially so for high moly content. I can't readily find the link though. It's a long paper by Japanese researchers (who else?).

Regarding timing chains, you are right that you probably want the thickest base oil (least VII content) but with high VI (such as PAO, GTL, or Group III+++). In that sense probably a synthetic 5W-20 or 5W-16 is the best.

Do you think that's "thick" oil? Think again!

 

[HKPolice]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
I thought I had read high doses of the older type moly were bad for LSPI? I don't remember now. I would never run the stuff but it sounds like a great oil for a little mixing or top off.

I would disagree that high VI is always a good thing, actually not good for timing chains, but I do like oils loaded with goodies and this one certainly delivers.

Ah, moly is actually good for LSPI prevention. The type of moly doesn't really matter.

How oil affects LSPI

Regarding moly types, trinuclear moly is very potent, working fairly well in smaller doses, but I now realize that it seems to be overhyped.

I recently read a paper on a study with different moly types. I think the conclusion was that the dinuclear moly, which is the most common type of moly made by additive companies, is the best in reducing both friction and wear, as well as in having good synergy with ZDDP. This is probably especially so for high moly content. I can't readily find the link though. It's a long paper by Japanese researchers (who else?).

Regarding timing chains, you are right that you probably want the thickest base oil (least VII content) but with high VI (such as PAO, GTL, or Group III+++). In that sense probably a synthetic 5W-20 or 5W-16 is the best.

Do you think that's "thick" oil? Think again!


There have been dozens of UOA from either high moly oil or regular oil /w liqui moly MoS2 additive mixed in. None of them show any significant reduction to wear metals.

I think the only benefit of high MoDTC oil is in boundary layer lubrication which doesn't really happen unless you drain all the oil from the engine. Tri nuclear moly is more than enough for the minimal boundary layer cases that occur during normal operation.

High dose MoDTC will make a come back when 0w16 & 0w8 oils become mainstream, that's when it'll make a real difference.

 

[OilUzer]

Question:

Originally Posted By: OilUzer
... Why is it (moly) not more widely used by others if it improves the mpg? Does moly have other benefits besides mpg at least for Toyota's engine design?


Thanks for the answer. I've read before that Toyota likes to deal with proven (older) technology and slower to change (which I like) ... So they are doing it with oil as well plus add to that it's cheaper theory and it all makes sense!

Originally Posted By: HKPolice
Having such a high dose of moly doesn't automatically mean it's better.

It just means they're still using the old MoS2 form of moly whereas all other modern oils have switched to the new Tri Nuclear form of moly which only requires a ~80ppm dose to be effective.

Why would Toyota still use the old MoS2 form of moly? Japanese companies are resistant to change, their oil engineers are probably at retirement age and don't trust many new types of anti wear additive especially at such low doses. Mazda also has an OEM 0w20 oil that has high moly content, but UOA reports show nothing exceptional.

Cost is another reason, Tri nuclear moly is more expensive and high doses of old MoS2 can coat the catalytic converter which ruins it (not a big issue unless your engine is burning oil).

 

[PimTac]

“....IsTGMO 0W-20 SN made in Heaven? ....”

Not likely. A odd title for a thread.

Does this oil perform so much better than the major brands? I would doubt it. I’m sure it’s good oil but let’s not put it on a pedestal.

 

[OilUzer]

The only oil made in heaven is extra virgin olive oil

 

[Gokhan]

Ha! Oil-Club Russia concluded that the new TGMO 0W-20 SN (well, the 2015 formulation, not the 2017) is GTL through their FTIR (Fourier-transform infrared spectroscopy). This is the conclusion I reached using my base-oil-quality index (BOQI). I like these guys! Perhaps I'll let them use my BOQI.

They also concluded that the moly used is the Vanderbilt Molyvan 855, not the Infineum trinuclear moly used in the original TGMO 0W-20 SN formulation. Again, I like these guys! They explain the boron additive as well. Their comments on LSPI and pretty much everything else are right on. These guys are very knowledgeable indeed.

Oil-Club Russia test of TGMO 0W-20 SN (2015 formulation)

 

[4WD]

Originally Posted By: OilUzer
The only oil made in heaven is extra virgin olive oil

Probably made at the BMT refinery near the Texas/Louisiana line …
Only heaven if you love seafood

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
They also concluded that the moly used is the Vanderbilt Molyvan 855, not the Infineum trinuclear moly used in the original TGMO 0W-20 SN formulation.

Hmm, Vanderbilt Molyvan 855 is sulfur-free moly. According to the Infineum presentation on trinuclear moly, sulfur-free moly doesn't work well because it doesn't resemble or generate molybdenum disulfide MoS_2.

Infineum presentation on trinuclear moly