NASCAR and Japanese brands

[Bryanccfshr]

Ignorance I suppose. Anyone who doesn't think there is alot of technology and knowledge in Amercican circle track racing and setup has blinders on or has never actually been more involved than flipping on a race on the TV set.

I don't think anyone form of racing is superior, each has required skills of the drivers and the car builders.
You wouldn't run a quarterhorse at the derby and you wouldn't put a thouroughbred into barrel racing. They are bred for differnet applications. The jockey and the cowboy have much differing styles of horsemanship as well.
I like circle tracks because like drag strips it allows real people to get involved in motorsports on a budget. What can be wrong with that?

 

[Master ACiD]

circle tracks are fine and dandy but alot of these guys still run carbs or hillborn mechanical fuel injection. in alot of ways they are really advanced. its amazing how they can take a straight axle and get such a quick car with it. and in even more ways they are just retarded, like the aformentioned fueling worthlessness.

i dont see why everyone doesnt run a modern electronic multiport sequential fire fuel injection system. even in nascar. it would show a responsibility to the enviroment, while providing more power than a carburettor. sounds like a win win situation to me.

something like a mid level haltech fuel injection kit really isnt much more money than one of them trick 4 barrel carbs. and with no emissions controls, they are incredibly basic and uncomplicated.

thats one thing i like about imports. you go to see the import drags, everyones running fuel injection. theres an off 4 barrel on a rotary every once in a while,but id say 98% of the cars that race here in the nationals run aftermarket fuel injection.
back on topic, i have a pic of the toyots nascar camry's engine out of the car. a very uplose and personal photo if anyone wants it. i took it myself. actually i have pics of the rest of the car too. got to stick my head in the car and take pictures down in homestead.

 

[Bryanccfshr]

For the local tracks and regional race associations I can agree with the use of carbs for simplicity and keeping cost down for racers. I have to agree that cost cannot be a factor in NASCAR. They could still limit the air volume to reduce speed but..a we don't make the rules. I Consider the carbs and flat tappets a stubborn link to the old fashioned stock cars..which is ironic since stock cars no longer use them.

I would like those pics.

 

[tmorris1]

Blueworld. You are making a lot of broad statements. The fact is that you can't compare the 2 forms of racing because they are so much different from one another. Its like comparing apples and oranges.
We will see how quick Montoya can adapt to stock cars. He is a great driver, but the cars are so different that it will be a steap learning curve for a short time.

 

[Vuser]

quote:

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Originally posted by 1999nick:
Toyota Camrys are manufactured in the U.S. Most of their parts are manufactured in the U.S. Heck, they make their engine blocks in Jackson, TN. The thousands of workers getting paid to make them are Americans.

On the other hand, the American manufacturers have sent the manufacture of the cars whose names they put on their NASCAR entries out of the country. The Ford Fusion is made in Mexico, and the Chevy Monte Carlo and the Dodge Charger are made in Canada.

Inasmuch as the Toyota Camry has been the best selling car in the U.S. for years, in spite of being pricier than much of its competition, it is appropriate for it to be represented in NASCAR.

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The only problems I have with rice burners is that although they made be made here, the profits go back to Japan. That, and the parts are outrageously priced. We had a '92 diamante and one brake caliper for the rear cost $95.

 

[Bror Jace]

I don't see a problem, per se, with Toyota in NASCAR ... Toyota drove a Tundra full of money to their offices. What're they supposed to do, turn it down?

Most of the technology in NASCAR is woefully outdated. However, it is so thoroughly developed that they are able to get a lot of speed out of the cars regardless.

We had a good thread somewhere around here about pushrod engines. If you cap the revs, pushrod motors beat OHC hands down.

F1 drivers are the elite of the auto racing world and yes, they were very kind to Jeff Gordon during Trading Paint. Jeff admitted that he figured what it would take to go from qualifying for the race at the back of the grid to actaully racing competitively and merely shook his head (to his credit, he knows his limits).

Regarding the grooved tires in F1 (for the benefit of people who honestly don't understand this) is to slow the cars down ... especially in long, sweeping corners.

Most of the changes in F1 are designed to slow the cars down or otherwise improve saftey and the pace is such that with smaller engines this year (down ~200hp) the cars are just about as fast as they were last year.

Back to NASCAR, when restrictor plates came out, I thought bringing the displacement down to 5.0L/305CID was a good idea ... I still do.

Can't wait to see how Montoya does.

--- Bror Jace

 

[asiancivicmaniac]

[/qb][/QUOTE]The only problems I have with rice burners is that although they made be made here, the profits go back to Japan. That, and the parts are outrageously priced. We had a '92 diamante and one brake caliper for the rear cost $95.

[/QB][/QUOTE]

Ever consider calling them imports or foreign cars maybe? In addition I think it is more important for working class Americans to have jobs than for Mexicans, Canadians, etc. to have those jobs and have a big corporation US corporation to have the profits that may not reach the American people who need money such as a single parent who needs to support his/her kids.

 

[milwaukee]

Using the cheapest American labor (the south) and taking advantage of rural people that need to put food on the table is hardly doing the USA any favors. Honda, Nissan, Toyota only build cars here because it is cheaper than building them in Japan. They are not trying to "help" anyone other than themselves.

Paying a guy in TN $14/hr to build Nissans is a slave wage compared to Japan and the poor sap thinks he is making a ton of money just because he can lease a new Titan every two years for a few hundred a month and afford a bigger trailer than he had before.

 

[bretfraz]

i dont see why everyone doesnt run a modern electronic multiport sequential fire fuel injection system. even in nascar. it would show a responsibility to the enviroment, while providing more power than a carburettor. sounds like a win win situation to me.

The main reason is sanctioning bodies can more easily police cheating. When you go electronic, cheating becomes far easier to hide and far more prevalent.

For years F1 had a "no traction control" rule. But with super-advanced computer technology on all the cars, it was easy for programmers to alter the fuel mapping program at certain moments (like the start of a race). F1 mgmt had no reliable way to control the cheating so they simply changed the rules to allow traction control.

NASCAR sticks with carbs because they have a fool-proof way to catch cheaters. The traction control controversy hit NASCAR about 3 years ago so they made all the teams install their ignition boxes on top of the dashboard so everyone can see everyone else's stuff. EFI would open Pandora's Box for cheating in NASCAR so don't expect to see it anytime soon.

 

[1999nick]

quote:

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Originally posted by Vuser:

quote:

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Originally posted by 1999nick:
Toyota Camrys are manufactured in the U.S. Most of their parts are manufactured in the U.S. Heck, they make their engine blocks in Jackson, TN. The thousands of workers getting paid to make them are Americans.

On the other hand, the American manufacturers have sent the manufacture of the cars whose names they put on their NASCAR entries out of the country. The Ford Fusion is made in Mexico, and the Chevy Monte Carlo and the Dodge Charger are made in Canada.

Inasmuch as the Toyota Camry has been the best selling car in the U.S. for years, in spite of being pricier than much of its competition, it is appropriate for it to be represented in NASCAR.

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The only problems I have with rice burners is that although they made be made here, the profits go back to Japan. That, and the parts are outrageously priced. We had a '92 diamante and one brake caliper for the rear cost $95.

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Toyota and Honda manage to make great cars AND great profts using U.S. labor; Ford and GM are on the verge of bankruptcy even tho using cheaper labor in Mexico ($3.00 an hour), and Canada.

 

[tmorris1]

quote:

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Originally posted by milwaukee:
Using the cheapest American labor (the south) and taking advantage of rural people that need to put food on the table is hardly doing the USA any favors. Honda, Nissan, Toyota only build cars here because it is cheaper than building them in Japan. They are not trying to "help" anyone other than themselves.

Paying a guy in TN $14/hr to build Nissans is a slave wage compared to Japan and the poor sap thinks he is making a ton of money just because he can lease a new Titan every two years for a few hundred a month and afford a bigger trailer than he had before.

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Nobody is forcing people to work there... If you don't like the wage, get a different job.

 

[Tosh]

If I were cynical, I would point out that FIA Tech Chief Charlie Whiting and Ferrari Tech Director Ross Brawn are drinking buddies. (And that the FIA has appealed it's own stewards' decision. What a farce.)

 

[Auto-Union]

I see a new Acura LeMans car coming next year. OT, but kewl.

 

[Spitty]

You could also say 'they are providing work where work is most needed'
Setting up shop Outside Detroit just makes a lot of sense to me, provided they can manage the logistics.
GM did this with Saturn, I guess it's also a way of Breaking the Detroit 'attitude' to making cars.

 

[jsharp]

I noticed this weekend "the most technologically advanced racing series" banned the mechanical vibration dampers some teams were running inside their nose sections.

If I were cynical I'd say it was a blatant move to give Ferrari and the Bridgestone teams who haven't done well with the dampers a better chance against Renault and the Michelin teams who have, and to try and even up the series. But I'd only say that if I were cynical...

 

[milwaukee]

quote:

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Originally posted by Spitty:
You could also say 'they are providing work where work is most needed'
Setting up shop Outside Detroit just makes a lot of sense to me, provided they can manage the logistics.
GM did this with Saturn, I guess it's also a way of Breaking the Detroit 'attitude' to making cars.

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With your thinking you should be really happy when all the cars are made in China and Mexico since that is "where the work is most needed".

 

[JohnBrowning]

No they do not have to use a production block! Dodge uses the most radical block design of anyone in the series. Nascar was very tight on what they would allow Toyota to do with it's block because of the radical direction Dodge took. Nascar did not want Toyota to take what Dodge had done and push it even further. So from what I understand Toyota took a look at what Ford,GM and Dodge had done and made sure to stay with-in those parameters design wise. Everything they did was approved buy Nascar before it was finalized. All of the companies have to make their engnie available inthe form of parts to anyone that wants to race it. So they do not have to sell their parts to just anyone but if someone want to race the engine they must make the engine or it's parts available.

If you want to talk about Nascar I think you attention should be directed towards the cars and trucks design that are raced. I think it is absolutely stupid that they drive tube chasis's that are rear wheel drive with a panhard rod setup in a "Stock Car Event"!!! I can not even recall the last time I saw a new OEM rear wheel drive Monte Carlo with a V8 and panhard rod setup roll off an assembly line? I have no respect for Nascar because their is nothing "stock" about the cars raced in the Nascar. If you go back not that long ago the cars that rolled off the assembly were fairly close to what was being raced other then engine tweaks. I think that the models being raced in Nascar should be forced to run the same drive train layout,engine configuration,fuel managment system and key suspension diemensions as the body styles their are based on. So no more V6 FWD body styles with tubular chasis,rear wheel drive, panhard rod solid axle setup, with a carburated V8.

While I do not want to see Nascar turn into techno geek F1 it does need to rethink it's whole platform!!! If Nascar wants to survive the next 50 years it has to let Toyota and Honda in. Where do you think all of these Toyota,Honda,Hyndai,BMW,Daimler plants are located???? I will give you hint it's in Nascar country. What do you think a lot of Nascar fans drive???? Not every Nascar fan drives a Ford or GM products.

Toyota is actualy forceing the competion to a new level. Toyota is a factory sponsored team so Toyota's engineers are always present. They take a lot of key measurements on track day and on practice days and make a lot of recomendations based on science. Toyota also did a lot of wind tunnel testing wich payed off big time for them. This has forced other corporations to give teams even none factory sponsored teams significant help and support!! I know that Toyota's new pushrod engine has had some durability issues. I guess they made it too lite in some areas.

 

[JohnBrowning]

jsharp,Michael Schumaker(sp)has done well in many different raceing styles. Parnelli Jones possably the greast driver to ever be produced by the USA also raced and won in many different styles of raceing. Mario Andreti was not a one trick pony either.

Many drivers from F1 and Indy have raced in other venues very well.

P.S. Real men would rather be Rally Raceing!!!!

 

[Hohn]

quote:

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Originally posted by milwaukee:
Using the cheapest American labor (the south) and taking advantage of rural people that need to put food on the table is hardly doing the USA any favors. Honda, Nissan, Toyota only build cars here because it is cheaper than building them in Japan. They are not trying to "help" anyone other than themselves.

Paying a guy in TN $14/hr to build Nissans is a slave wage compared to Japan and the poor sap thinks he is making a ton of money just because he can lease a new Titan every two years for a few hundred a month and afford a bigger trailer than he had before.

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So the company benefits, AND the guy on the line benefits! What's the beef with that? It DOES help the American economy, whether you so it or not.

NASCAR is out to make money- period. The way to do that is expand the fan base-- make it more popular. Then you can somehow convince all the fans that the race really IS worth $100 to see, and spend another $100 on "apparel."

There's no reason to disallow Toyota from competing. It can only make NASCAR richer and make it better for the fans. If nothing else, it creates a "love to hate" like Gordon or Stewart that adds to the "drama" (in the sense that pro wrestling has "drama")

NASCAR has the most refined "old" tech around. Yes, it's still carbureted and live axle among others, but these are the highest form ever seen. They have never been developed this far because they never had to-- OEMs abandoned the "old tech" a long time ago.

I can't bring myself to be a NASCAR fan, but I'll be the first to say that the drivers and techs don't get their due respect. They are world-class within their "genre", so to speak. The "shock guy" on these teams can tune a shock's valving with precision most Baja teams would respect.

I understand NASCAR's reasons for eschewing technology, but I lament the lack of room for ingenuity or creativity-- even "cheating".

Consider the converse in the case of something like Top Fuel. A Top Fuel race car has very few rules: 500 cubic inches, 300" wheelbase, wing width, tire height and width, and a spec fuel. THAT'S IT for the rules!

As a result, the cost for campaigning a Top Fuel car are relatively low, considering this is the pinnacle of the sport. By comparison, a NASCAR car takes a LOT more money. Why? RULES!

Simply put, the more rules there are, the more expensive is the race effort. For a more valid comparison, compare a gasoline-burning Pro Stock car to a Fuel car and you'll see the Pro Stock car costs about FOUR TIMES as much to operate-- all because the rules are so much tighter. That's why you almost *have* to have factory sponsorship in PS-- it's too pricey to afford without it.

What's the point of trying to innovate when you'll be "punished" relative to the slackers? Why innovate when NASCAR will help you if you can't compete?

I think the root of my distaste for NASCAR is that it smacks of Socialism-- take from the haves and give to the have-nots.

 

[Hohn]

quote:

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Originally posted by milwaukee:

quote:

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Originally posted by Spitty:
You could also say 'they are providing work where work is most needed'
Setting up shop Outside Detroit just makes a lot of sense to me, provided they can manage the logistics.
GM did this with Saturn, I guess it's also a way of Breaking the Detroit 'attitude' to making cars.

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With your thinking you should be really happy when all the cars are made in China and Mexico since that is "where the work is most needed".

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If I can then buy a quality-made Honda for $5K brand new, then I say YES! BUILD THEM!

And I'm CERTAIN that none of the "America First" types would EVER shop at Wal-mart, where almost everything is made overseas (mostly China) and imported.

The Americans that are currently working at these car factories could get other jobs-- and the money they are making at their new jobs will go farther because now they can buy are nicer car for less money!

It's called competition--that's how it works, and that's how it benefits all of us.

jh