My ‘06 Cummins Dodge had a OPS switch (not a sensor one), and it failed once, scared the daylights out of me to see the gauge pegged on zero, and warnings all over the place. But once I realized I still had a full sump & non-collapsed lifters, just went & put in a new one. Pretty sure my F-450 7.3 IDI is the same way-stupid.
MT - What Is the Optimum Engine Oil Temperature?
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I call BS.I never knew there was a specific temp.
"For a dual-purpose car, engine oil needs to be at least 220 degrees F to burn off all the deposits and accumulated water vapor."
What Is the Optimum Engine Oil Temperature?
Give your engine max protection and unlock extra power by maintaining proper oil temp.www.motortrend.com
My clothes line, and even my clothese drier NEVER see 220F, and they dry...
Drying isn't a case of "boiling" everything, it's relative humidity (yes and temp), and gas/air flows...
If your components (or guns) are exposed to damp air, and they are below the dewpoint, they eill get liquid condensation on them...but you don't have to apply a blowtorch and get them to 220F to boil that off.
REmember the tests where I put 20W60 and SAE 30 in my air cooled mower...BIG temperature difference between viscosities.
My 6.0 LS engine in my Suburban has a factory oil cooler that is integral inside the radiator. It is simply a tube inside the rad at the bottom with sealed fittings. The engine coolant is 210 F, so the oil is at least that hot and higher.
The issue is water accumulating faster than it can evaporate out. The clothes on the clothesline aren't being sprayed with mists of water as they're trying to dry.
Condensation isn't the only source of water in the oil as it also comes from the fuel as a by-product of combustion. Burning 1 gallon gasoline produces 1.033 gallons of water, some of which inevitably ends up seeping past the rings and into the oil. In areas with high humidity, you also pull moisture in by way of the PCV system.
The oil is near constantly being hit with water from multiple sources so you want to keep the oil hot enough that water vapor in the crankcase remains a vapor, and liquid water in the oil can quickly turn to vapor, and all get vented out of the crankcase faster than it is accumulating.
I agree with most everything you're saying. However about the only way you will achieve this constant accumulation of moisture, (read water), in the oil, is if you live in a frigid climate, and only make very short trips.
Doing this over a long period of time will allow moisture to accumulate without it being evaporated out. Because the oil won't get hot enough, long enough.
Even then, once the vehicle is driven long enough for the oil to reach operating temperature, it won't take long for it to dissipate.
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I think these endless thick vs thin debates here are not that extreme … if you look at what many folks are running - I say debates even flare over 20 vs 30
(or those who hold the 3.5 sword) …My old Passat with the V6 would see 224F when full warmed up and summertime would easily go to 240F.I never knew there was a specific temp.
"For a dual-purpose car, engine oil needs to be at least 220 degrees F to burn off all the deposits and accumulated water vapor."
What Is the Optimum Engine Oil Temperature?
Give your engine max protection and unlock extra power by maintaining proper oil temp.
VW was well aware of the highish temps and speced 15w-40 as a winter oil and 20w-50 as a summer oil.
(This was 1994)
Of course in the years prior to 1994 when these specs were written back then there were few stable 0w-40s and 5w-40s otherwise I am sure they would have speced those for winter.
By the time the mid 90s rolled around stable (no excessive VIIs )10w-40s were everwhere and 15w-40 was starting to be perceived as a Diesel grade ( as it is now), so never knew why VW didnt spec the 10w-40 over the 15w-40 for winter.
I'm sure there are other design factors besides burn off and moisture. Isn't there for example optimal oil temperature for activating the add packs and also overall operating efficiency, component expansion, fuel economy, etc. The design engineers have to balance all these and target a nominal temp range.
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There is an extraordinarily captivating article available that explores the peculiar segregation of TBN additives, polymers, by water (blow by) precisely in the region surrounding piston rings. This exceptional phenomenon arises from the specific composition of the mixture, which includes both PAO and lavish esters.
( https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0167892203801669 )
illuminating excerpts sourced from this article -
"
The solids deposition, the chemical tests for Base Number and additive presence and also the physical measurement of viscosity indicate that it is the additive package which is separating out from the base oil under the initial conditions in the ring zone.
The implications for short journey, cold start conditions are that, for at least the first hour, the ring groove temperatures require a considerable time to equilibrate at what is normally regarded as 'operating' temperatures. The loss of additives appear to give reduced lubricant performance protection properties for the degraded lubricants under these conditions, compared to the fresh lubricant. "
"
Separation and analysis of the solid phase shows it to be predominantly polymer from the viscosity index improver with traces of other additives present, such as Base Number and anti- oxidant.
The ring zone sample mass varies with time, Fig 3, decreasing sharply with the progress of the test run from 6-9g/hr at 15min, decreasing to -2-3 g/hr
at 60 minutes, according to the base oil formulation.
The interesting point for these samples is that after one hour engine operation the extent of physical degradation gradually declines with time,
the samples eventually becoming 'normally degraded', defined as being substantially changed by exposure to the conditions in the ring pack zone but as a homogenous phase."
An oil cooler built into the radiator like that is in the coldest part of the radiator (near the outflow hose in the radiator), so it should be running a lot less than 210F especially when the car is moving at a decent speed and air is going through the radiator.
All cars are dual-purpose. They either drive, or they park.
I wouldn't take seriously any article (or post) that refers to "burning off" moisture.
Functioning PCV systems remove a lot more moisture than they introduce via humidity of incoming ambient air.
Functioning PCV systems remove a lot more moisture than they introduce via humidity of incoming ambient air.
The sump temp may show 180F, but the valve gear may be running at 220 so I don't see an issue. JMTs Ed
Thanks Zee. We will have to throw some science on this. I have one of those laser aimed infrared temp guns and will measure the temp of the return hose. I know the entire coolant volume is around 4 gallons and depending on the source of the data, a LS engine water pump does 20 gpm at an engine speed of 2000 rpm. That means the entire volume travels through the rad at approx 5 times per minute. It will be interesting to see what the delta in the temps are. I can’t get the temps while moving but I can stop and take a quick look with the engine idling. Stay tuned.
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I tried to measure temps at specific places but the under hood temps were all over the place with the fan blowing. We can assume the water temps were lower at the bottom but by how much not sure.Thanks Zee. We will have to throw some science on this. I have one of those laser aimed infrared temp guns and will measure the temp of the return hose. I know the entire coolant volume is around 4 gallons and depending on the source of the data, a LS engine water pump does 20 gpm at an engine speed of 2000 rpm. That means the entire volume travels through the rad at approx 5 times per minute. It will be interesting to see what the delta in the temps are. I can’t get the temps while moving but I can stop and take a quick look with the engine idling. Stay tuned.
Adding to the discussion....
www.enginelabs.com
Moroso Explains How Engine Temps Tamper With Oil Movement
Oil pressure and engine temps not aligning with the pressure coming from your crankcase? Moroso thinks your oil temps may have affected flow.
www.enginelabs.com
"In essence, doubling your oil’s temperature translates to doubling its flow rate, so make sure you know precisely what temp your oil is sitting at when you check its flow rate and pressure. This can make a massive difference in how effectively that lubricant circulates within the engine itself, but also how well it cycles back into your engine’s oil pan and onboard pump system."Adding to the discussion....
Moroso Explains How Engine Temps Tamper With Oil Movement
Oil pressure and engine temps not aligning with the pressure coming from your crankcase? Moroso thinks your oil temps may have affected flow.
These guys just make things too complicated by looking at it in a twisted way. The bottom line is that with a positive displacement oil pump the volume of oil going through the engine will essentially be the same at the same RPM regardless of how hot or cold the oil is as long as the pump is not in pressure relief. The oil pressure will decrease at the same flow rate through the same circuit as the oil gets hotter and thinner.
This is impossible to do with a PD oil pump running at a steady 1250 RPM if the flow resistance (an engine oiling system) they are putting the oil through remains constant. Whatever they are doing doesn't represent what happens in an engine's oiling system being fed by a PD oil pump.
The only way you could make what's shown below happen on an engine (ie, make the flow increase at a constant 1250 RPM @ 60 PSI of oil pressure) as the oil temperature went up is to put a bigger and bigger PD oil pump on the engine.
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^^^
Also convoluted explanation like a typical sales pitch ... I wasn't sure what he's trying to say or points he's trying to make. The type I'll hit the ignore button and my bs detector goes off even in our meetings at work till I confirm with a real expert. You can feel when something doesn't make sense! lol
Also convoluted explanation like a typical sales pitch ... I wasn't sure what he's trying to say or points he's trying to make. The type I'll hit the ignore button and my bs detector goes off even in our meetings at work till I confirm with a real expert. You can feel when something doesn't make sense! lol
That's what happens when you have marketing desk jockeys, with no background in tribology or lubricants, making the videos. It's like the Melling video of the guy saying varnish will clog a pickup screen.
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