Originally Posted by BusyLittleShop
Energy Conserving is not additive... its an API test that this "oil
might result is an overall saving of fuel in the vehicle fleet as a
whole"... there is nothing in the oil to defeat a wet clutch...
Motorex Crosspower 4t JASO rating?
- Thread starter FULLBLOWN
- Start date
Is there any information on the coefficient of friction as it relates to 10w30 energy-conserving oil in general?
For instance, some number or specification of an energy conserving oil that could be related to the JASO coefficient of friction test to draw a comparison. Or if an actual coefficient of friction test was done with an energy-conserving oil out of curiosity.
BLS is saying what I've mentioned before and I think a lot of people have mentioned before. Energy conserving and friction modifier correlation have always assumed friction modifiers were secret pixie dust. If there was pixie dust, someone around here would have figured out what that pixie dust is. That's because pixiedust doesn't exist...
To my mind the energy-conserving element simply is the lighter weight oil, which out of a sheer abundance of common sense, would lead to fractionally better efficiency.
Originally Posted by BusyLittleShop
Originally Posted by Reddy45
Friction discs will be fine as a 10W50 is not energy conserving and would not have friction modifiers.
Quote
Let's begin with a quick background of the 4-stroke JASO specification. In 1998, JALOS organized the first widely accepted standard for evaluating performance of motorcycle engine lubricants. This was necessary due to an increasing number of automotive oils meeting the energy conserving and resource conserving specifications through the technology of friction modifiers. Because these friction modifiers are not designed for compatibility of wet clutches, problems were occurring in motorcycles utilizing a common oil sump for both the engine and transmission. The MA specification was launched in 1998 with the attempt to differentiate between products that were suitable for wet clutch applications and those that weren't. This was done in collaboration with the major motorcycle manufacturers of Japan at the time so it was a fairly industry-wide desire to identify the products that worked most effectively. The first two categories introduce by JALOS were the JASO MA and the JASO MB performance specifications. The MA category was originally meant for good clutch compatibility and MB was for products not compatible with wet clutches, or in other words; products that contain friction modifiers and cause clutch slip.
What are those friction modifiers? They get talked about but I've never heard one named. What is the chemical compound or the organic material that makes up a friction modifier?
Some may say they are "proprietary", however friction modifiers have been around for decades and decades, someone somewhere would have named one and called it out loud.
As long as Honda calls for a 5w30 in that bike I don't have an issue with it. Not that it makes any kind of difference if I did. 
Reality is, my 1980 Yamaha XS1100 called for a 10w30 oil in colder temperatures. I'm sure the bike would not have self-destructed if it had been run in hotter temperatures with it. No question the oil would have sheared and shifting would have felt like poop, but the engine would have made it.
Until someone names them, in a light-hearted comparison kind of way, there is no more proof they exist than Bigfoot.
Just poured a soda and a made bowl of popcorn. Munch munch munch...
Reality is, my 1980 Yamaha XS1100 called for a 10w30 oil in colder temperatures. I'm sure the bike would not have self-destructed if it had been run in hotter temperatures with it. No question the oil would have sheared and shifting would have felt like poop, but the engine would have made it.
Until someone names them, in a light-hearted comparison kind of way, there is no more proof they exist than Bigfoot.
Just poured a soda and a made bowl of popcorn. Munch munch munch...
Originally Posted by FULLBLOWN
Yes so if my bikes manual is requesting the "less slippery" oil, I don't want to ruin anything running this. Sorry I'm not good with words sometimes haha.
Originally Posted by Bonz
What are those friction modifiers? They get talked about but I've never heard one named. What is the chemical compound or the organic material that makes up a friction modifier?
Some may say they are "proprietary", however friction modifiers have been around for decades and decades, someone somewhere would have named one and called it out loud.
As long as Honda calls for a 5w30 in that bike I don't have an issue with it. Not that it makes any kind of difference if I did.
Reality is, my 1980 Yamaha XS1100 called for a 10w30 oil in colder temperatures. I'm sure the bike would not have self-destructed if it had been run in hotter temperatures with it. No question the oil would have sheared and shifting would have felt like poop, but the engine would have made it.
Until someone names them, in a light-hearted comparison kind of way, there is no more proof they exist than Bigfoot.
Just poured a soda and a made bowl of popcorn. Munch munch munch...
Reality is, my 1980 Yamaha XS1100 called for a 10w30 oil in colder temperatures. I'm sure the bike would not have self-destructed if it had been run in hotter temperatures with it. No question the oil would have sheared and shifting would have felt like poop, but the engine would have made it.
Until someone names them, in a light-hearted comparison kind of way, there is no more proof they exist than Bigfoot.
Just poured a soda and a made bowl of popcorn. Munch munch munch...Originally Posted by Bonz
What are those friction modifiers? They get talked about but I've never heard one named. What is the chemical compound or the organic material that makes up a friction modifier?
Some may say they are "proprietary", however friction modifiers have been around for decades and decades, someone somewhere would have named one and called it out loud.
As long as Honda calls for a 5w30 in that bike I don't have an issue with it. Not that it makes any kind of difference if I did.
Reality is, my 1980 Yamaha XS1100 called for a 10w30 oil in colder temperatures. I'm sure the bike would not have self-destructed if it had been run in hotter temperatures with it. No question the oil would have sheared and shifting would have felt like poop, but the engine would have made it.
Until someone names them, in a light-hearted comparison kind of way, there is no more proof they exist than Bigfoot.
Just poured a soda and a made bowl of popcorn. Munch munch munch...
Reality is, my 1980 Yamaha XS1100 called for a 10w30 oil in colder temperatures. I'm sure the bike would not have self-destructed if it had been run in hotter temperatures with it. No question the oil would have sheared and shifting would have felt like poop, but the engine would have made it.
Until someone names them, in a light-hearted comparison kind of way, there is no more proof they exist than Bigfoot.
Just poured a soda and a made bowl of popcorn. Munch munch munch...
Quote
STLE-member Chris Donaghy, sales director-polymer additives and lubricants for Croda Inc. in New Castle, Del., says, "There are two types of friction modifiers: organic friction modifiers (carbon, hydrogen and oxygen only) and metal-containing friction modifiers (MFMs) such as molybdenum dithiocarbamate (MoDTC). Organic friction modifiers consist of two key segments-a polar group that can attach to metal surfaces and a lipophilic group that provides not only oil solubility, but also a cushioning or spring-like effect to prevent surfaces from coming into contact."
Quote
Besides the primary type, Ian Bell, technical director-new product development for Afton Chemical Corp. in Richmond, Va., defines a second friction modifier type. "This second type can be described as chemicals that decompose under the high temperatures and pressures within an engine and their decomposition products form graphitic layered structures on the engine surface," Bell says. "These impart very low friction characteristics due to the crystalline layer structure of the decomposition species."
Boron, sulfur, phosphorus, moly all are temperature or pressure activated in a motor oil. Zinc as well. These are all organic or metal-containing compounds.
Redline motorcycle oils contain upwards of 500 PPM of moly.
Mobil 1 V-Twin oil shows 200 PPM of boron by analysis.
To my knowledge there is no graphite in motor oil since ARCO quit doing that back in the 80s. What is a "graphitic layered structure" comprised of? Or is that being used as a generic term to describe boundary layers and coatings that come from the additives named above?
What additional chemicals or substances are we talking about that are friction modifiers that are not already in plentiful quantities in oil regardless if energy-conserving or not?
Originally Posted by Bonz
Boron, sulfur, phosphorus, moly all are temperature or pressure activated in a motor oil. Zinc as well. These are all organic compounds.
Redline motorcycle oils contain upwards of 500 PPM of moly.
Mobil 1 V-Twin oil shows 200 PPM of boron by analysis.
To my knowledge there is no graphite in motor oil since ARCO quit doing that back in the 80s. What is a "graphitic layer" comprised of? Or is that being used as a generic term to describe boundary layers and coatings that come from the additives named above?
What additional chemicals or substances are we talking about that are friction modifiers that are not already in plentiful quantities in oil regardless if energy-conserving or not?
That article doesn't provide more information or address different elements that do not already exist in motor oil. The article talks about the process by which elements combine and provide friction reducing protection. Kind of the purpose of motor oil in general, but that statement is driven by ego and not fact it appears.
The amount of moly in a Redline and the amount of boron in M1 far exceed that of most energy conserving oils that have friction modifiers. I believe moly was referenced in the article you shared.
I'm not condoning to run a 5w30 in any motorcycle that might not call for it however I am focusing on the friction modifier aspect of the article that talks in broad context about the process that occurs and doesn't name any elements that are not already in motor oil to the best that I can tell.
Originally Posted by Bonz
The amount of moly in a Redline and the amount of boron in M1 far exceed that of most energy conserving oils that have friction modifiers. I believe moly was referenced in the article you shared.
I'm not condoning to run a 5w30 in any motorcycle that might not call for it however I am focusing on the friction modifier aspect of the article that talks in broad context about the process that occurs and doesn't name any elements that are not already in motor oil to the best that I can tell.
For the sake of good discussion, you are right on the money. It is the interaction of the elements that make the compounds. What elements are creating friction modifier compounds (that either increase or decrease friction) that are different in energy conserving oil vs. non energy conserving?
I am simply trying to stretch the discussion to consider that friction modifiers are no different between energy-conserving and non energy-conserving. Thinking about it, possibly the energy-conserving designation is simply because the oils that have it are lighter weight oils.
Reality is, motorcycle manufacturers have been saying for years we have to use their oils, and it's been proven over and over again that isn't the case. I have yet to hear of anyone who has run an energy conserving oil whether on purpose or by accident, say they have had an issue in an otherwise mechanically sound clutch system.
I'm not trying to get into a urinary Olympiad here, just trying to pose the question that maybe it's not all it's cracked up to be.
Originally Posted by Bonz
Reality is, motorcycle manufacturers have been saying for years we have to use their oils, and it's been proven over and over again that isn't the case. I have yet to hear of anyone who has run an energy conserving oil whether on purpose or by accident, say they have had an issue in an otherwise mechanically sound clutch system.
I'm not trying to get into a urinary Olympiad here, just trying to pose the question that maybe it's not all it's cracked up to be.
Definitely I'm not suggesting or implying to start running car specific oils that are energy-conserving, there's no need to do that in a motorcycle. However, I'm not saying I've seen enough proof that it would be harmful to do so from a clutch slippage standpoint in an otherwise healthy clutch.
Guys ran rotella for years and years and millions and millions of miles and everybody fought against them, and Shell came out and give it a JASO rating after years of successful use. In that case real world experience was more important than any rating the manufacturer did or didn't put on it.
Only playing the devil's advocate here and pushing the subject. It seems there is some light shining through the holes of the case that "friction modified" oils are different than non EC oils.
