Motor Oil Geek..Oil & Fuel Additives

[fantastic]

FWIW: Kirkland Signature Diesel – available at select Costco locations – has been certified to meet TOP TIER™ performance standards. Learn more about Top Tier at toptiergas.com.

But yes, I agree that TT Diesel is hard to come by.

Yes, I know they're on there. There are only 9 listed within a 500 mile radius of me for an example. Seem to be in the major cities w/huge populations where there is a Costco/Kirkland. Then you must pay a "Membership Fee" annually to have the privilege of accessing that fuel station. That's why I mentioned "Basically nonexistent" to many common folk and nowhere near the adoption of the top tier gasoline.

 

[Jetronic]

Think about a fully loaded air filter, bugs, dirt, dusty environment, etc. Not only can this cause lack of airflow for combustion it can also overheat the engine. Surprised you didn't know that.

hmm no.... it's the same thing as driving with the throttle closed. That doesn't cause overheating or mess up the combustion. You just don't get much power.

On a diesel (which isn't and shouldn't be throttled) it does make a difference if the filter is extemely loaded.

 

[scrllock]

Yes, I know they're on there. There are only 9 listed within a 500 mile radius of me for an example. Seem to be in the major cities w/huge populations where there is a Costco/Kirkland. Then you must pay a "Membership Fee" annually to have the privilege of accessing that fuel station. That's why I mentioned "Basically nonexistent" to many common folk and nowhere near the adoption of the top tier gasoline.

I'm not sure about the diesel but if you have a car that takes premium it pays for itself real quick. 60-80c/gal cheaper most of the time for me.

 

[scrllock]

I've never heard of MoS2 causing any drama in ICE engines anywhere except for your example.

I've got no skin in the moly game but supposedly that's a known side effect of molybdenum disulfide. Hard to say, google results are garbage. Certainly anecdotes from forums out there, but I'm not sure an engine leaking at 300k is something I'd blame on an additive.

 

[fantastic]

hmm no.... it's the same thing as driving with the throttle closed. That doesn't cause overheating or mess up the combustion. You just don't get much power.

On a diesel (which isn't and shouldn't be throttled) it does make a difference if the filter is extemely loaded.

I think we must be talking about two different things because all my engines take air with fuel regardless of throttle position. When there is lack of airflow when needed due to a clogged air filter it will not combust completely or run at all. I think the air filter is important for complete air/fuel combustion process to be as clean as possible. Lacking air would throw that balance off.

Inefficient combustion is real... That's why we change our air filters. Lack of power, like you mention, is one sign of this off balance air/fuel ratio. I see we're not going to understand each other due to you think clogged air filter doesn't "Mess up the combustion" process. I disagree with that assertion. It's a balance, take one of those away it doesn't work very well period.

 

[Sandstorm]

I've got no skin in the moly game but supposedly that's a known side effect of molybdenum disulfide. Hard to say, google results are garbage. Certainly anecdotes from forums out there, but I'm not sure an engine leaking at 300k is something I'd blame on an additive.

Known side effect?? Can you please provide some scientific evidence?

 

[Mainia]

I've never heard of MoS2 causing any drama in ICE engines anywhere except for your example.

Yeah, me too, until I was replacing seals twice a year and now my pumps last 4-5 years before I need to rebuild them from long term rod wear. That stopped me from using LM moly and Ceratec just out of not wanting to be the guy who has to do main seals and cam seals because I used it. By all means use it if you want too. I just don't want the risk factor as I REALLY hate doing seal jobs on the pumps. I know I would really really really hate doing a seal job on my car. Just saying what my findings are. I will take the advice of a Summit Industrial Lubricants/Kluber R&D chemist over Hopiium.

 

[TiGeo]

Yeah, me too, until I was replacing seals twice a year and now my pumps last 4-5 years before I need to rebuild them from long term rod wear. That stopped me from using LM moly and Ceratec just out of not wanting to be the guy who has to do main seals and cam seals because I used it. By all means use it if you want too. I just don't want the risk factor as I REALLY hate doing seal jobs on the pumps. I know I would really really really hate doing a seal job on my car. Just saying what my findings are. I will take the advice of a Summit Industrial Lubricants/Kluber R&D chemist over Hopiium.

I'll take my own direct use of the products in my engines for many years now without issue as more than "hopiium".

 

[That John dude]

No oil additives are good for your engine it’s all snake oil. You are playing chemical Russian roulette with your engine putting additives in it that doesn’t belong.

I’m just curious why BG will step up, and pay for failures when using their moa. If it was costing them more than they’re making wouldn’t they stop?
I’ve wondered this for awhile. They stand behind the products they make.

 

[Mewbs]

I’m just curious why BG will step up, and pay for failures when using their moa. If it was costing them more than they’re making wouldn’t they stop?
I’ve wondered this for awhile. They stand behind the products they make.

Has there been any recent instances of MOA blowing up engines?

 

[That John dude]

Has there been any recent instances of MOA blowing up engines?

Not that I’m aware of, but if you run it every time they’ll pay up to $5,000 for repair.

 

[Jetronic]

I think we must be talking about two different things because all my engines take air with fuel regardless of throttle position. When there is lack of airflow when needed due to a clogged air filter it will not combust completely or run at all. I think the air filter is important for complete air/fuel combustion process to be as clean as possible. Lacking air would throw that balance off.

Inefficient combustion is real... That's why we change our air filters. Lack of power, like you mention, is one sign of this off balance air/fuel ratio. I see we're not going to understand each other due to you think clogged air filter doesn't "Mess up the combustion" process. I disagree with that assertion. It's a balance, take one of those away it doesn't work very well period.

The balance isn't off as the air entering the engine is measured, (by Mass Airflow sensor or Manifold Air Pressure sensor) and the correct amount of fuel is injected. The oxygen sensor in the exhaust is used to check the amount of fuel was correct and adjustments get made from that reading if needed.

I change my air filters because they stop filtering effectively when loaded too much, and could let dirt in that destroys seals and/or engines

 

[fantastic]

The balance isn't off as the air entering the engine is measured, (by Mass Airflow sensor or Manifold Air Pressure sensor) and the correct amount of fuel is injected. The oxygen sensor in the exhaust is used to check the amount of fuel was correct and adjustments get made from that reading if needed.

I change my air filters because they stop filtering effectively when loaded too much, and could let dirt in that destroys seals and/or engines

When power is called for via the go pedal, the engine would end up trying to compensate for lack of air by increasing fuel. The electronic measurements are not 100% perfect or on all vehicles. Sensors monitor the conditions & try to reduce them, They don't always eliminate it from happening at any given time. There are many enthusiasts with older machines. Again, replace the air filter, regularly for proper mixture, especially on older engines. Take my recent example of my Stihl weed eater. Down on power, running hot (that you think doesn't exist), hard to start, then quit like it ran out of fuel. Took it into the garage & removed the spark arrestor that was completely clogged. Cleaned it & was back in business...temporarily. You see the same symptoms happened again just a few weeks later. Back into the garage & changed the 9 year old air filter. All of that could've been avoided had I maintained the air filter properly. Did this not circle back to the un-maintained air filter? That spark arrestor plugging could have been prevented for a lot longer had the air filter been changed...right? The weed Wacker has very primitive OBD II & not sure where the sensors are.

https://www.fram.com/vehicle-maintenance-center/post/dirty-air-filter-symptoms
https://www.airfilterblaster.com/blog/6-dangers-of-a-clogged-air-filter-to-your-vehicles-engine/
https://www.autozone.com/diy/filters/signs-you-need-a-new-air-filter

 

[scrllock]

Known side effect?? Can you please provide some scientific evidence?

see the words "supposedly" and "anecdotes."

There are reports on this forum of similar situations to @Mainia 's, as well as other forums where people reported leaks while using mos2--this is anecdotal, just like tigeo's "works fine for me." The only scientific paper I found was on the use of MoS2 as a gasket sealer, which caused galvanic corrosion and leaks in certain vellum gaskets.
It's hard to say what the chemist at Summit was referring to.

Some materials are said (by o-ring manufacturers) to cause swelling with mos2, such as EPDM. My uneducated guess is that yes, certain motors use seal materials which are not compatible with moly, especially in larger concentrations than you'd find in off the shelf oils.
I am not sure if motor use conditions will cause MoS2 to oxidize into MoO2 or MoO3 but those also have their own, preferred seal materials.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

I think we must be talking about two different things because all my engines take air with fuel regardless of throttle position. When there is lack of airflow when needed due to a clogged air filter it will not combust completely or run at all. I think the air filter is important for complete air/fuel combustion process to be as clean as possible. Lacking air would throw that balance off.

Inefficient combustion is real... That's why we change our air filters. Lack of power, like you mention, is one sign of this off balance air/fuel ratio. I see we're not going to understand each other due to you think clogged air filter doesn't "Mess up the combustion" process. I disagree with that assertion. It's a balance, take one of those away it doesn't work very well period.

Clogged, or "overly efficient" air filters will typically evidence themselves with loss of high rpm, wide open throttle power.

Modern 4 stroke gasoline fueled "smog engines" measure inlet air temp and calculate mass air flow and barometric pressure along with throttle position, manifold pressure (vacuum), crank speed and position, cam position, wheel speed, fuel pressure, combustion O2 precat, O2 post cat, coolant temp, knock sensing, etc, and will COMPENSTATE for a gradually plugged inlet air filtration using "learning" of LT fuel trim and also ST trims.

They cannot "restore" lost high RPM torque due to loss of available airflow; But normal to moderate driving will be compensated for with NO LOSS of FUEL economy or "overheating".

Now, Carbureted engines or 2 stroked engine or simple diesels which are not sensor controlled will indeed exhibit problems with clogged air filters.

- Arco.

 

[Jetronic]

When power is called for via the go pedal, the engine would end up trying to compensate for lack of air by increasing fuel. The electronic measurements are not 100% perfect or on all vehicles. Sensors monitor the conditions & try to reduce them, They don't always eliminate it from happening at any given time. There are many enthusiasts with older machines. Again, replace the air filter, regularly for proper mixture, especially on older engines. Take my recent example of my Stihl weed eater. Down on power, running hot (that you think doesn't exist), hard to start, then quit like it ran out of fuel. Took it into the garage & removed the spark arrestor that was completely clogged. Cleaned it & was back in business...temporarily. You see the same symptoms happened again just a few weeks later. Back into the garage & changed the 9 year old air filter. All of that could've been avoided had I maintained the air filter properly. Did this not circle back to the un-maintained air filter? That spark arrestor plugging could have been prevented for a lot longer had the air filter been changed...right? The weed Wacker has very primitive OBD II & not sure where the sensors are.

https://www.fram.com/vehicle-maintenance-center/post/dirty-air-filter-symptoms
https://www.airfilterblaster.com/blog/6-dangers-of-a-clogged-air-filter-to-your-vehicles-engine/
https://www.autozone.com/diy/filters/signs-you-need-a-new-air-filter

My oldest car was a 1978 Porsche 924 and even that could monitor air flow and adjust fueling for it, never had one (except a diesel van) that couldn't. It's not a thing until the air filter doesn't allow enough air to run the car.

is that a 2-stroke stihl you're talking about? Totally different beast, that thing sucks it's axhaust gas back in under certain conditions, and relies on fuel for lubrication.

I didn't check what the air filter manufacturer and seller (and what does airfilterblaster do?) have to say, they are in the business of getting your money for air filters. It's how every gas engine since the very first ones works: fueling gets reduced when less air enters the combustion chamber, they don't care what causes the restiction.

 

[fantastic]

Clogged, or "overly efficient" air filters will typically evidence themselves with loss of high rpm, wide open throttle power.

Modern 4 stroke gasoline fueled "smog engines" measure inlet air temp and calculate mass air flow and barometric pressure along with throttle position, manifold pressure (vacuum), crank speed and position, cam position, wheel speed, fuel pressure, combustion O2 precat, O2 post cat, coolant temp, knock sensing, etc, and will COMPENSTATE for a gradually plugged inlet air filtration using "learning" of LT fuel trim and also ST trims.

They cannot "restore" lost high RPM torque due to loss of available airflow; But normal to moderate driving will be compensated for with NO LOSS of FUEL economy or "overheating".

Now, Carbureted engines or 2 stroked engine or simple diesels which are not sensor controlled will indeed exhibit problems with clogged air filters.

- Arco.

Nowhere did I say my initial comment was only pertaining to only "modern engines". Change your filters when their needed.

 

[fantastic]

My oldest car was a 1978 Porsche 924 and even that could monitor air flow and adjust fueling for it, never had one (except a diesel van) that couldn't. It's not a thing until the air filter doesn't allow enough air to run the car.

is that a 2-stroke stihl you're talking about? Totally different beast, that thing sucks it's axhaust gas back in under certain conditions, and relies on fuel for lubrication.

I didn't check what the air filter manufacturer and seller (and what does airfilterblaster do?) have to say, they are in the business of getting your money for air filters. It's how every gas engine since the very first ones works: fueling gets reduced when less air enters the combustion chamber, they don't care what causes the restiction.

So, after all of this you realize that there are engines out there that aren't as perfect as your Porsche? Let's get real here... Most engines of that era were carbureted. Yes, modern sensors do a much better job at varying the fuel input but as you well know not all sensors are 100% reliable or 100% precise.

My comments are to not change your filters needlesly but as a reminder that a filter that is quite plugged can throw off air/fuel ratio. That's not a sensor controlled engine only comment and more of a general one that has good intentions.

 

[Mainia]

see the words "supposedly" and "anecdotes."

There are reports on this forum of similar situations to @Mainia 's, as well as other forums where people reported leaks while using mos2--this is anecdotal, just like tigeo's "works fine for me." The only scientific paper I found was on the use of MoS2 as a gasket sealer, which caused galvanic corrosion and leaks in certain vellum gaskets.
It's hard to say what the chemist at Summit was referring to.

Some materials are said (by o-ring manufacturers) to cause swelling with mos2, such as EPDM. My uneducated guess is that yes, certain motors use seal materials which are not compatible with moly, especially in larger concentrations than you'd find in off the shelf oils.
I am not sure if motor use conditions will cause MoS2 to oxidize into MoO2 or MoO3 but those also have their own, preferred seal materials.

The R&D chemist says they use the "clear moly"(paraphrasing) in their oils. I don't know the proper nomenclature word for that type of moly. While many years ago and my memory of the banter back and forth is lost in my 63 year old memory. I thought, it was a "to large a nanometer size issue, with repeated revolutions on the seal that was the issue. A "not refined enough issue" IF I remember right.

 

[350Rocket]

I totally agree with you. So finish the video with that summary then. Don't claim that your engine will last longer because the oil pressure rises a fraction of a second faster when you prefill the oil filter as we simply don't know that.

I don't prefill as I dislike the thought of putting dirty oil into the clean side of the filter.

No reason not to fill it unless you're using a possibly contaminated bottle of oil...he pretty well proved it enough to me that I'm going to pre fill again every time whenever possible.