More Evidence That Doesn't Support 10K Oil Changes

[SubieRubyRoo]

Nose and ramp will be shiny from pressure, base circle will be matte because it barely makes contact with the roller.

Yeah I know about the nose & ramp; I meant look at the lobes for each cylinder. Where you can see the nose & ramps on same-side lobes, it looks like even their patterns are different.

But there’s no scoring or spalling visible, which is the important part.

 

[OVERKILL]

For all the folks that want to do their 10k+ oil changes on their car. Go for it, you paid a lot of your own money for that vehicle. If you want to save some money on oil changes that's up to you.

For me? Oil changes are cheap and easy so I'll keep doing mine at 4-4.5k. Might be overkill sure, but frequent and regular oil and filter changes is the best and cheapest thing you can do to keep your engine working right for as long as possible.

Oil doesn't age in miles. It's like wiping based on the number of passes vs whether the paper is clean yet or not. Hours is the best proxy, but doesn't take into account short tripping and fuel dilution or type of service, like runs to WOT. This is why companies (that aren't Toyota) developed IOLM's so that hours, speed, duration of operation, temperature...etc can all be taken into account in determining a suitable OCI length with an approved lubricant.

While Toyota's conservative approach to technology has served them well historically, their unwillingness to embrace it for oil change intervals, instead sticking to a dumb mileage counter, has done them more harm than good.

 

[OVERKILL]

Yeah I know about the nose & ramp; I meant look at the lobes for each cylinder. Where you can see the nose & ramps on same-side lobes, it looks like even their patterns are different.

But there’s no scoring or spalling visible, which is the important part.

I don't see any that are at the same timing location or angle that would allow us to make that observation

 

[Wingo]

The cheapest Gumout does not have the heavy dose of PEA!
Was it Regane?

I didn't buy the cheap one, whatever one said it contained PEA on the back, though there were a couple options on the shelf. Is one better than the other? And what's regane?

 

[4WD]

I didn't buy the cheap one, whatever one said it contained PEA on the back, though there were a couple options on the shelf. Is one better than the other? And what's regane?

just one in the Gumout line that shows PEA on the label …

 

[TiGeo]

Not really that. It was more about the resultant argument. Throwing out bad information, then arguing about it, is equivalent to trolling. We are pretty close to that threshold in this thread.

I have read more than once that PF oil videos are banned here.

 

[Astro14]

I have read more than once that PF oil videos are banned here.

Here is what was said:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...-project-farm-video-today.380791/post-6832908

You saw that post, @TiGeo - because you "liked" it. So, you already know that we have decided not to allow "junk science".

It has more to do with the membership reaction (people believe the tests are valid, when they are not) and supporting the monetization of a YouTuber. He means well, I am sure, but he is in the business of making money. He makes money selling you a product - his tests.

We are not supporting that sale. This is an important distinction.

The cost/benefit analysis was done - PF oil videos have a high cost*. No benefit.


*Cost in promulgating falsehoods, contentious reactions, monetizing someone else, lowering the quality of discussion and information on the site.

IF this thread is going to turn into a referendum on moderator decisions - then it simply reinforces my gut reaction towards this in the first place - that video that formed the basis for this thread was worthless. It has resulted in enough contention that now you're discussing moderation on the forum.

You can add that to the "cost" side of the cost/benefit analysis, and that is all the more reason to moderate threads like this earlier on in the discussion, instead of letting them run.

I think we should treat threads like cigars. It is always better to put it out a bit early, while it is still good, rather than let it get bitter and nasty at the end.

 

[Sumboodie]

250 or 500hr oil changes have been industry standard for easily 30 yrs on equipment... and that's with "cheap" oil.

250hrs equates to around 10k miles, 500hrs, 20k. 500hr usually done on larger sumps, like 8-10+ gallons.

Tracking oil by engine hours makes far more sense than miles.
It's winter and you let your car run 20 mins every morning to warm up the cab and thaw the windshield.

That's around 400 "miles" a month that's not accounted for.
5 Months a year... 10 years... car shows 20k "miles" less than it really has.

Never mind time at stop lights, drive throughs, etc, etc, etc.

And better yet are the fancy setups that calculate oil life on run time, load, fuel used, temps, etc.
Far better than going just off runtime hours, and far, far better than going by mileage.

 

[TomYoung]

An engine builder I trust and respect says (regarding oil changes) "to take what the manufacturer says and cut it in half".......

That’s pretty solid.

 

[doublebase]

Watched this video the other night, I thought it was the typical...this is why you don't want to do 10,000 mile oil changes. And I was right. First off, it's a turbo 4 cylinder direct injected engine. Small displacement, small sump (if I remember). We have no idea what type of oil used, what the driving conditions were or even if the vehicle actually did 10,000 mile intervals. I mean, it's ridiculous.

That would be like me saying...runners have heart attacks...then proving it with my test subject being a 320 pound, 55 year old man just coming off eating a cheese cake and running straight uphill. And people eat this stuff up.

 

[TurboZedd-R]

Well yeah, for sure you can believe only what you want to hear, and dismiss everything else. That's called politics. Do you think that Toyota mechanic is lying? If so what are you basing it on? He preaches what most of the engine builders say continually. No more than 5K on oil.

The fact is the consumer cannot control his or her oil choice most of the time if they're having it done. What percentage even try? And for those who do, you're still at the mercy of the dealership.

Quick lube places pump their oil out of a drum. You most likely don't even know if you're getting the correct weight. Let alone the correct grade. Do you think Jiffy Lube gives you HPL quality oil if you ask for it?

Who makes, "Genuine Toyota Oil"? They don't. And how does the consumer know he's even getting it? Let alone what's in it, that will allow for him or her to go 10K on it?...... Like the doctor who is getting his engine replaced.

We have thread after thread here asking who makes SuperTech, or other mass produced "no name" brands. Unless you select and buy the oil yourself, and put it in yourself, you really have no way of knowing. Instead you, "trust".

And that doctor in the video is wishing he hadn't. And if you don't like my numbers, then show me yours. What percentage of people do you think change their own oil? And what percentage of those have it analyzed? It's minuscule at best.

I honestly don't know anyone who does. Here yeah. But we don't budge the needle of the overall driving public. Which in 2022, amounted to 255 million driving Americans. Do the math and see what you come up with.

So roughly 254 million cars should be on the side of the road for taking a 10k oci risk . Very interesting

 

[The Critic]

While Toyota's conservative approach to technology has served them well historically, their unwillingness to embrace it for oil change intervals, instead sticking to a dumb mileage counter, has done them more harm than good.

I disagree. I haven’t seen any benefits to the OLM for Honda. Both Toyota and Honda suffered from the same oil consumption issues between 2005-15.

 

[tig1]

I've been doing 10k OCI for the last 46 years in various engines with various types of M1 oils. One engine in my 1991 Ford Ranger had 354K with 0 internal engine problems. In fact I've never had engine, trans, or PS pump problems using M1 lubricants. 10K is just my normal OCI.

 

[ZeeOSix]

The internals of this engine are really sludged up. And they have documentation that 10K oil service was done. Make of it what you will.

If that vehicle actually had ~8000 mile average OCIs, then they must have used junk bulk oil at some quick service place. The PVC system could also no be working well, and don't know if that vehicle was mostly short tripped. All of those things can factor in to causing sludge to form.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I disagree. I haven’t seen any benefits to the OLM for Honda. Both Toyota and Honda suffered from the same oil consumption issues between 2005-15.

My 2005 Tacoma doesn't even have an OLM, just a yellow light that comes on in 5000 miles after it's reset. That motor doesn't burn any oil either.

 

[oil pan 4]

10k oil changes are for noobs. I do 40k mile oil changes on my leaf. It's got nearly 140,000 miles and it's only on its 3rd oil change.

 

[billt460]

So roughly 254 million cars should be on the side of the road for taking a 10k oci risk . Very interesting

Would you buy any of them with 200K on the clock?

 

[burbguy82]

Look, in my experience, 5,000 mile intervals cause sludge.

Short intervals are the engine killer.

That is an interesting opinion. There are countless examples of vehicles that are "neglected" but still seem to last a tremendous amount of time and miles, but that might not be the cause. I have wondered about this.

Why do you have this opinion, other than your personal experience? Do you theorize that the oil, (which is in longer use) suspends contanmination and perhaps uses it as an "ultra light cleaning booster"? Or something along those lines?

 

[Astro14]

That is an interesting opinion. There are countless examples of vehicles that are "neglected" but still seem to last a tremendous amount of time and miles, but that might not be the cause. I have wondered about this.

Why do you have this opinion, other than your personal experience? Do you theorize that the oil, (which is in longer use) suspends contanmination and perhaps uses it as an "ultra light cleaning booster"? Or something along those lines?

I was trying to make this point - that using only the OCI, and ignoring other factors, leads to specious conclusions.

The personal experience is true - I had a sludged engine, that got 5,000 mile oil changes. Absolutely true.

And that conclusion is wrong - it wasn’t the short OCI that led to problems. It was a combination of factors.

Clearly, oil is not oil (as some have recently claimed) and specification matters. The engine itself needs a better quality oil than was being used by well-intentioned “mechanics” who used 15W40 conventional in a Volvo engine. Wrong spec. Even though it was “good diesel oil, with more detergents” as the owner was told.

Wrong oil, at short interval resulted in sludge. That’s the XC-90.

Same engine in the 2002 V70T5 - long drain interval with the right oil = no sludge.

Identical engines, so, we have controlled for that. Both engines see a mix of in town and highway driving. So, no difference in use. Both in Virginia Beach, so, no weird climate differences. Yet, here is the result of identical engines with over 200,000 miles:

Short interval on conventional = sludge.

Long interval on A3/B4 = clean.

I find this entire discussion of oil change interval, in isolation, without regard to engine, operating conditions, or oil specification, to be mildly ridiculous. So I posted a true example, which ignored those same factors, and the result is, well, mildly ridiculous.

If you take things out of context, and you fail to account for a multitude of variables that influence the outcome, then the result is pointless.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Thank god this isn't an EU forum as these debates over OCI's will involve same numbers but in kilometers. "My BMW M6 is a high performance engine and I mush change my oil every 5k km over that ridiculous 10k or even 15k km interval as it's just sending them to an early grave". Yes folks, I've seen that argument. 5k km interval.