Modern Motor Oil Esters

[Brian Reid]

quote:

---

MolaKule:

IMHO, that is a suprising statement.

---

In my opinion you need to get a full-time job where you can use your excess energy and theories on lubrication chemistry more fully than amongst us poor peons who just can't understand all the things you apparently can.

I just can't understand why some major oil company hasn't snapped you up and put you to work formulating the Next Great Trend in Motor Oil.

Unless, of course, you exhibit in the workplace the same genteel style and humble demeanor that leads to comments like:

".... assuming engineers take enough chemistry these days to know the difference between the various phases of chemicals".

Maybe you'd like to take a few minutes and put that Great Mind to work explaining how chemical rocket scientists screwed up with DexCool?

Or is it possible .... just possible .... that a bit of practical application, some common sense, and a bit of humility - think, for example, of the Wright brothers - beats a Ph.D. when it comes to actually getting something to work?

Scientists theorize, but engineers make it work.

 

[MolaKule]

quote:

---

So, when someone suggests his opponent is too stupid or too ignorant to understand "the economics", it's fair to suggest that he's avoiding dealing with the high price of esters and the lack of any evidence that in the real world they offer any benefits over the cheaper product.

---

Well, this thread was originally about the technical aspects of ester oils, but the reality of economics is a side issue to address a comment introduced by you.

quote:

---

Well, I haven't said I'm an engineer, chemist, physicist, or other "expert" and then tried to palm off personal opinion as something more.

---

So are you now saying your Profile is not what you really are?


Mr Reid, we are still waiting for you to present some technical evidence that esters are harmful, as per the original topic. And I don't recall you having answered the question where I asked you to comment from the SAE stuff you said you posted as evidence. Being a member of the SAE, I would think you have ready access to that material and could provide some comments from that material.

 

[Brian Reid]

quote:

---

MolaKule:

But 99% of all base oils and additives are shipped in liquid form.

---

Except of course those that are shipped in other forms, such as granular, which are then mixed with a solvent, as is trimethylolethane apparently is. That doesn't sound like a great base for a motor oil but it does sound like a great additive to "paints, powder coating resins, polyol ester synthetic lubricants, plasticizers, stabilizers for plastics, and titanium dioxide pigment coatings" in which you could dissolve it.

Now, that isn't quite as spiffy a statement as:

"Polyols are made by reacting multifuntional alcohols with a monofunctional acid....They are, however, much more stable than diesters, and tend to be used instead of diesters where temperature stability is important. A general rule of thumb is that a polyol is thoguht to be 40-50 C more thermally stable than a diester of the same viscosity. Esters give much more lower coefficients of friction values than those of both PAO and mineral oil. In general, polyol esters based on TMP or or PE give lower values [of friction] than diesters."

"For those just tuning in, there are three major polyol esters: pentaerythritol esters, di-pentaerythritol esters, Tri, Qantinary-pentaerythritol esters, Trimethyl Propane esters (TMP), and Neopentylglycol esters (NPE). A fairly new one is the TME ester discussed earlier. All are very hydrolitically, thermally, and elastomerically stable."

but it is probably more germane to the discussion, in "laymens (sic) terms", or even in laymen's terms.

I understand from a chemist friend in Fairfax, Virginia, that one of the major makers of synthetic lubricants uses trimethylolethane as an *additive* in a number of products - the exact chemical make-up of which and the history of I'm sure you'll be happy to regal us with.

I'm betting it has something to do with enhancing performance in high temperatures, resisting hydrolysis, retarding oxidation, and as a friction modifier.

But I'm no physicist.

 

[Brian Reid]

quote:

---

MolaKule:

Well, this thread was originally about the technical aspects of ester oils, but the reality of economics is a side issue to address a comment introduced by you.

---

I'd love to hear about the reality of economics.

Elucidate, Herr Molakule.

quote:

---

Well, I haven't said I'm an engineer, chemist, physicist, or other "expert" and then tried to palm off personal opinion as something more.

So are you now saying your Profile is not what you really are?

---

Golly, if I wanted to say my Profile is not what I really am, I'd write "my profile is not what I really am".

If I wanted to say "I'm not going to claim expert status so I can try to palm off my personal opinions as something more", I'd write "Well, I haven't said I'm an engineer, chemist, physicist, or other "expert" and then tried to palm off personal opinion as something more."

quote:

---

Mr Reid, we are still waiting for you to present some technical evidence that esters are harmful, as per the original topic.

---

"We"? How many of you are posting as "Molakule"?

I'm waiting for someone to provide some facts involving a fully formulated motor oil based on "modern motor oil esters".

 

[satterfi]

The physical interaction of POEs and elastomers is of interest to me.

If the ester diffuses into the elastomer, it will swell, soften and possibly get damaged. Of course, having a seal shrink and harden from contact with a PAO isn’t any more desirable.

 

[Titanium_Alloy]

Dichtomatic O-Ring Handbook
Section 5 - Compatibility, starts p. 141

At page 154 it lists di-ester synthetic lubricants compatibility with:

Nitrile or Buna-N rubber - Vol. change 10-20%
Fluorocarbon Elastomer - Vol. change Ethylene-Propylene-Diene Rubber - not suitable
Silicone Rubber - not suitable

Book doesn't list results of other rubbers tested with di-esters. I must carefully assume that polyol ester will have simular effect on rubber compounds.

Regards,

 

[radiometer]

I'm lurking out here waiting. Molakule has well made his point.

 

[Brian Reid]

quote:

---

krholm:
Molakule has well made his point.

---

What was it?

Btw, nice snake.

 

[Blue99]

quote:

---

"We"? How many of you are posting as "Molakule"?

---

The use of "we" is entirely appropriate in this case. We are the many members of BITOG who appreciate the technical advice and support, provided by Molakule, since the inception of this forum.

 

[buster]

Guy's lets stay on topic. A good clean debate is good for everyone.

 

[Brian Reid]

quote:

---

Blue99:

quote:

---

---

The use of "we" is entirely appropriate in this case. We are the many members of BITOG who appreciate the technical advice and support, provided by Molakule, since the inception of this forum.

---

How does that translate into ".... we are still waiting for you to present some technical evidence that esters are harmful, as per the original topic"?

It looks like, from what I've read in this and the other thread, that you can put together a reasonably priced motor oil from Group III and Group IV bases that does just about anything you want to do (unless your car is jet powered) at a price you can afford to pay.

The ester-based lubes offered for consideration seem to involve Europe, which doesn't have a significant Group III and IV manufacturing capacity and where they can more or less force consumers to buy expensive trick oils, and tiny niche marketers who need a selling point.

The evidence for esters is all anecdotal and/or theoretical, as is the evidence against.

I'm waiting for some actual evidence of field tests with a statistically significant number of vehicles with a fully formulated modern motor oil ester to compare with Groups IIIs and IVs.

 

[buster]

quote:

---

that you can put together a reasonably priced motor oil from Group III and Group IV bases that does just about anything you want to do (unless your car is jet powered) at a price you can afford to pay.

The ester-based lubes offered for consideration seem to involve Europe, which doesn't have a significant Group III and IV manufacturing capacity

---

I agree with the above but I'm not so sure even esters are that common in Europe. Shell Helix is a Grp III /PAO/ ester blend. I think Europe runs GrpIII/PAO based oils.

 

[Primus]

quote:

---

Originally posted by buster:
I agree with the above but I'm not so sure even esters are that common in Europe. Shell Helix is a Grp III /PAO/ ester blend. I think Europe runs GrpIII/PAO based oils.

---

Fully correct in respect of Gr.III/PAO, but 2-3 % of Esters in some Helix Ultra grades, does not cost to be mentionned in the composition.

In addition, it would be difficult to believe that there a shortage of Gr.III in Europe with capacities of Shell, British Petroleum, Fuchs, Aral, TotalFinaElf and may be of some other less known manufactures.

 

[Brian Reid]

quote:

---

Primus:

---

In addition, it would be difficult to believe that there a shortage of Gr.III in Europe with capacities of Shell, British Petroleum, Fuchs, Aral, TotalFinaElf and may be of some other less known manufactures.

Production, and production sufficient to sustain a product in the market, may be different things.

For example, Mobil invested heavily in PAO production with markets such as Mobil 1 in mind, and at the same time produce a number of esters for other markets (such as jet engine lubricants).

 

[Brian Reid]

quote:

---

Primus:

---

In addition, it would be difficult to believe that there a shortage of Gr.III in Europe with capacities of Shell, British Petroleum, Fuchs, Aral, TotalFinaElf and may be of some other less known manufactures.

The EU maintains and publishes some data on production capacity. For example, here's an analysis on a BP/Mobil merger with the major Group I-III manufactuters ranked on pages 58 and 59:

http://europa.eu.int/comm/competition/mergers/cases/decisions/m1383_en.pdf

It looks like Exxon, BP, Mobil, and Shell are well over 50% of the total production capacity, with the others no more than 6-7% each.

 

[MolaKule]

quote:

---

I'm waiting for some actual evidence of field tests with a statistically significant number of vehicles with a fully formulated modern motor oil ester to compare with Groups IIIs and IVs.

---

And we are still awaiting for you, a declared fuel engineer with purported access to the SAE libraries, to quote from your references giving data that esters cause rust and seal swelling problems, which is the topic of this thread.

All we have seen from you is inuendos.

If your real complaint is about cost, yes I can appreciate that. A valid topic for discussion could be: "Are high-ester-content fully formulated oils economically Viable."

But that is not the topic of this thread, and we have yet to see anything of substance from you for the stated topic.

 

[Primus]

Brian,
In your previous post you wrote:
"The ester-based lubes offered for consideration seem to involve Europe, which doesn't have a significant Group III and IV manufacturing capacity".

To which I replied:
"it would be difficult to believe that there a shortage of Gr.III in Europe with capacities of Shell, British Petroleum, Fuchs, Aral, TotalFinaElf and may be of some other less known manufactures."

I expressed my personal opinion that may be wrong (that's why I used the wording "it would be difficult to believe") and, naturally, it may differ from that of other people. But at the same time I don't see how, based on the info presented on page 59 of the EC document, it's possible to conclude that there is a shortage of mainly Gr.III and Gr.IV oils in Europe. Besides the info is dated by 1996, it misses one very important detail: it does not give the info on Gr.III and IV need vs capacity.

Just small clarifications from my side.

 

[Brian Reid]

quote:

---

Primus:
Besides the info is dated by 1996, it misses one very important detail: it does not give the info on Gr.III and IV need vs capacity.

---

I just passed it on as an example of the kind of data the EU compiles on various economic activity, including Group I, II, and III production by country and company. Since I can only post on break or when otherwise not working, I'm not in a position to do extensive research on this at the moment.

However, a friend passed this on:

http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/BaseOils/docs/icis.pdf

from 2000 and points out the following comments after a discussion of the finished motor oil market in Europe:

"..... there is only limited capacity for Group II base stocks in Europe. Due to the excess capacity of solvent refined Group I stocks, there has not yet been a large-scale shift in base oil processing technology towards hydroprocessing for 100VI base stocks."

followed by:

"..... there has been considerable expansion in the supply of Group III stocks in the region."

In any case, the mix of available stocks at various prices appears to be different in the European and North American markets, and I merely suggest that price and availability of base stocks may be a consideration in both markets when a motor oil is formulated.

 

[Primus]

An expansion in the supply of Gr. III oils does not mean their shortage. The words about limited capacity concerns Gr.II only.

 

[Brian Reid]

quote:

---

Primus:
An expansion in the supply of Gr. III oils does not mean their shortage.

---

Right.