Modern Motor Oil Esters

[sbc350gearhead]

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Originally posted by Brian Reid:
MolaKule:

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And we are still awaiting for you, a declared fuel engineer .....

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"Declared fuel engineer" - well, I declare, you *do* go on.

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.... with purported access to the SAE libraries .....

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Yet another egregious implication that someone is being less than honest.

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..... to quote from your references giving data that esters cause rust and seal swelling problems, which is the topic of this thread.

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I don't believe I wrote that "esters cause rust and seal swelling".

There were in this and the other thread, and not by me, posted some references (which you apparently have not bothered to look at) that both were concerns with polyol esters and some diesters, and I believe anyone working in the automotive field circa 1970-85 or thereabouts encountered plenty of anecodotal evidence thereof.

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All we have seen from you is inuendos.

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All you (the "we" is a bit too regal) have seen from me is a simple request that you present a fully formulated motor oil with a modern ester base and some test results so there's a target to shoot at.

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If your real complaint is about cost, yes I can appreciate that.

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Whether you can appreciate it or not, you made some vague references to economics. When asked for some fleshing out, some data, even a datum, silence.

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But that is not the topic of this thread, and we have yet to see anything of substance from you for the stated topic.

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Or from you, for that matter.

And that's the point.

Now, Herr Doktor, since you're apparently going to make life miserable for and insinuate they're flakes, liars, child molesters, and worse anyone who dares to suggest you're not the Ester Alpha and Omega, the Penultimate word on lubrication, and otherwise pay due homage, this should wrap it up for you and let you get on with Life - whatever that is in your particular case:

I do not have access to a fully formulated modern ester based motor oil and sufficient engines, personnel, and ancillary equipment and supplies to make an evaluation of whether - in such a motor oil - esters cause rust and seal swelling problems. I have been unable to find any such evaluation conducted within the last decade.

Therefore, I have no opinion on whether esters cause rust and seal swelling problems in a fully formulated modern ester based motor oil.

Anything else?

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So why didn't you just say "I have seen papers documenting possible problems with polyolesters and seal compatibility and hydrolysis, but I don't know if a modern fully formulated oil, would have such problems or not. From what I have read......I don't feel comfortable recommending a ester based synthetic for certain applications, but I cannot say that my recommendation would be accurate.", Instead of the dozens of troll posts?

 

[Brian Reid]

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sbc350gearhead:
So why didn't you just say "I have seen papers documenting possible problems with polyolesters and seal compatibility and hydrolysis, but I don't know if a modern fully formulated oil, would have such problems or not. From what I have read......I don't feel comfortable recommending a ester based synthetic for certain applications, but I cannot say that my recommendation would be accurate.", Instead of the dozens of troll posts?

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I'm assuming you understand that "troll" is an epithet.

1. I get the impression from your question that you're not interested in an answer.

2. Similarly I get an impression you wouldn't understand the answer.

3. It may have something to do with a line of questions might be appropriate in a criminal court or the Inquisition and a genetic disposition antagonistic to bullies.

If you'll go back to the beginning of this thread, you'll note no question framed that could have been responded to with "I have seen papers documenting possible problems with polyolesters and seal compatibility and hydrolysis, but I don't know if a modern fully formulated oil, would have such problems or not."

The first question directed to me personally was:

"I think now would be a good time for Mr. Reid to present some scientific data."

and I had not even offered an opinion.

¿Comprende? Verstehen Sie?

 

[rugerman1]

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Originally posted by Brian Reid:

2. Similarly I get an impression you wouldn't understand the answer.

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You crack me up!

Mark

 

[Brian Reid]

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rugerman1:
You crack me up!

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I found the line of questioning unamusing.

But there's no accounting for taste, or lack thereof.

 

[satterfi]

Has anyone other the Brian Reid read the SAE papers cited by temporary member Marty in support of the position that RL has problems with water and seals?

Brian, now is a good time to cite the relevant context of the SAE papers you claim to have read.

Brian wrote:

“I've been working through his numerous citations and it looks like he was doing a pretty good job of making his point and supporting it. One of the SAE papers he cited makes almost the same points about polyol esters”.

Brian, would it be too much trouble to ask you to contribute in a positive way to this forum?

 

[Dan4510]

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Originally posted by Brian Reid:

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rugerman1:
You crack me up!

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I found the line of questioning unamusing.

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That is highly predictable.

Dan

 

[moribundman]

It's funny how some sit on their high horses and look like real jack-triple-asteriks-es. Each one is out to make the other one look like he eats his young. It doesn't help if one can't read and puts words into the other's mouth. It's good entertainment though.

Anyway, I'd like to comemnt on this statement:

The ester-based lubes offered for consideration seem to involve Europe, which doesn't have a significant Group III and IV manufacturing capacity and where they can more or less force consumers to buy expensive trick oils, and tiny niche marketers who need a selling point.


Since when does Europe MANUFACTURE a lot of oil, even counting North Sea offshore drilling? The questions is whether Europeans use a considerable amount Group III oils. And the answer is YES! From what I've seen, Group III oils, hydrocracked, even blends, sell in larger quantities than Group IV and V.

 

[Brian Reid]

MolaKule:

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And we are still awaiting for you, a declared fuel engineer .....

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"Declared fuel engineer" - well, I declare, you *do* go on.

quote:

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.... with purported access to the SAE libraries .....

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Yet another egregious implication that someone is being less than honest.

quote:

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..... to quote from your references giving data that esters cause rust and seal swelling problems, which is the topic of this thread.

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I don't believe I wrote that "esters cause rust and seal swelling".

There were in this and the other thread, and not by me, posted some references (which you apparently have not bothered to look at) that both were concerns with polyol esters and some diesters, and I believe anyone working in the automotive field circa 1970-85 or thereabouts encountered plenty of anecodotal evidence thereof.

quote:

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All we have seen from you is inuendos.

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All you (the "we" is a bit too regal) have seen from me is a simple request that you present a fully formulated motor oil with a modern ester base and some test results so there's a target to shoot at.

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If your real complaint is about cost, yes I can appreciate that.

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Whether you can appreciate it or not, you made some vague references to economics. When asked for some fleshing out, some data, even a datum, silence.

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But that is not the topic of this thread, and we have yet to see anything of substance from you for the stated topic.

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Or from you, for that matter.

And that's the point.

Now, Herr Doktor, since you're apparently going to make life miserable for and insinuate they're flakes, liars, child molesters, and worse anyone who dares to suggest you're not the Ester Alpha and Omega, the Penultimate word on lubrication, and otherwise pay due homage, this should wrap it up for you and let you get on with Life - whatever that is in your particular case:

I do not have access to a fully formulated modern ester based motor oil and sufficient engines, personnel, and ancillary equipment and supplies to make an evaluation of whether - in such a motor oil - esters cause rust and seal swelling problems. I have been unable to find any such evaluation conducted within the last decade.

Therefore, I have no opinion on whether esters cause rust and seal swelling problems in a fully formulated modern ester based motor oil.

Anything else?

 

[Brian Reid]

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satterfi:
Brian, now is a good time to cite the relevant context of the SAE papers you claim to have read.

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"Claim"?

Not much point in responding to that one.

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Brian, would it be too much trouble to ask you to contribute in a positive way to this forum?

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Ditto.

 

[Patman]

This is just getting ridiculous now, can't we just get along??

 

[Motorbike]

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Originally posted by MolaKule:
One could state (for example) the situation as such:

"Some people make the claim that modern ester formulations (such as Redline, etc) are detrimental to engines, gear lubes, and hydrualic oils, in the sense that they cause rusting through hydrolysis, and degrade seals. State from published literature, one source at a time per post, giving publication organization, date, and specific quote or passage that supports your argument."

Posting one reference per post gives the respondent a chance to review said claim(s) and time to respond.

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This has turned into a Tit for Tat so I thought I would go back to ground one here since no offering to the contrare these new esters cause problems in a well formulated engine oil .

Remember , one can read all he wants about esters and their use in turbine engines , compressors but when an internal combustion engine fired with gasoline is involved there are many others additives to aid in rust protection, emulsification ect ect . These are modern motor oil formulas with a host of trick additives at the makers disposal. No-one is using ester base oils by theirselves and it seems this part got lost in the shuffle .

BTW , Maxima does not use PE Esters as the primary base oil . Or was that this thread ?

Try to keep on track or this will wind up being the longest topic thread in BITOG history with nothing of real

value in it

It takes two to tango so I'd ignore the posts without positive input if it were me ...... just a suggestion .

I have a quilt to finish and am out of thread . Pardon me while I step out to the dress shop for more supplies

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

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Originally posted by Motorbike:
... No-one is using ester base oils by theirselves and it seems this part got lost in the shuffle ....

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I don't think it did. It was also noted that no one is using MINERAL or PAO by themselves EITHER! They would fail just as badly if not worse. That is the point.

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

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Originally posted by Brian Reid:
MolaKule:
...

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But that is not the topic of this thread, and we have yet to see anything of substance from you for the stated topic.

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Or from you, for that matter.

And that's the point.
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Did you overlook post on pg 2 as one example?:

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...Now some very good scientific sources that I rely on are found in the Journal of Synthetic Lubricants and a number of texts, one of them being Synthetic and High-Perfromance Functional Fluids, edited by Ronald Shubkin [PAO and Friction Modfier chemist and tribologist (PhD) for Ethyl Corporation]. Another one is the CRC handbook text, Handbook of Lubrication and Tribbology, Vol. III, edited by E. Richard Booser, Chemist and Tribologist (PhD) of Pennsylvania State University.

[Now unless you are a chemist or formulator, I wouldn't recommend rushing out and purchasing these books; they cost upwards of $275 each].

I will quote some info and then attempt to put into laymens terms. In order to do so, I will simply say R1, R2, R3 for the respective references.

...

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[Brian Reid]

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Motorbike:
BTW , Maxima does not use PE Esters as the primary base oil .

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http://www.maximausa.com/technical/lubenews/LubeNews2002.pdf

"You may be asking, “If ester based synthetics are the best available, why don’t more companies
offer these oils in their product lineup?” The answer is simple – Cost . The main barrier to using better performing Group V (ester) basestocks is their cost in comparison to other available basestocks. The decision to use esters over other lubricants is one made from a performance standpoint. Maxima is committed to having the best oils on the planet and that’s why all of our synthetic oils are ester based . And by based we don’t mean 10 or 15% ester; our formulas offer a robust additive package and high concentrations of esters. Price is always involved in the decision model when purchasing an item, but high-performance and protection can sometimes be hard to place a number on and this philosophy is core to Maxima’s commitment to developing true high-performance lubricants."

***

They're apparently using the same "best oils on the planet" that Red Line uses because cost is no object.

 

[Brian Reid]

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Jason Troxell:

Did you overlook post on pg 2 as one example?:

"... Now some very good scientific sources that I rely on are .... I will quote some info and then attempt to put into laymens terms. In order to do so, I will simply say R1, R2, R3 for the respective references.

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The relevant quote seems to be:

"The hydrolysis of the ester, that is to say, their cleavage into an alcohol and an acid, has been the subject of many discussions in the past. However, this reaction has proved less disadvantageous in practice than had originally been feared."

Okay, that's one opinion.

Could we see the motor oil formulated using whatever "ester" they're speaking of, and the results of tests that demonstrate "this reaction has proved less disadvantageous"?

Or is it sufficient that they're PhDs, and all must bow down?

 

[MolaKule]

This thread was set up as a discussion tool for people who might have had data that dealt with the topic, and some kind of scientific data was preferable.

It is obvious to me that Mr. Reid:

1. Will never answer a direct question. He doesn't seem to know what's in his profile and neither confirms nor denys what is written therein.

2. Will never accept any data that doesn't agree with his premise (whatever that is - I know I am not sure),

3. It is obvious he doesn't like anyone who has an advanced degree. But I don't know of anyone here on BITOG with "doktorrs" who have lost sleep over it.

4. He would not accept any data that he requested so the point is moot. You see there is never going to be a study in which advanced degreed people would NOT be involved, so for Mr Reid, this is a self-fullfilling prophesy. I suspect Mr Reid would change his study requirements once the study was completed anyhow.

5. He has no technical data to present, nor is he qualified to interpret his own SAE data, so he hides behind various facades.

I truly believe most people on BITOG have attempted to address and answer Mr Reid in the most civil manner possible.

And what does MR Reid (Marty, QDD) do? He lashes out and attempts to tell them they're too ignorant to understand his responses anyway.


I suspect he is really Michael Moore's brother.

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

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Originally posted by MolaKule:
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I suspect he is really Michael Moore's brother.

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[Brian Reid]

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crashz:

Believe what Brian?

- A professional’s educated opinion and publications to back up his statements?

- Or your sarcastic jabs at us?

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When the Wright Brothers - two relatively uneducated bicycle mechanics - began to work on the problem of flying they built a glider as a test model. Wing camber was carefully matched to Otto Lilienthal's calculations, the standard reference work.

Lilienthal was a graduate of the Royal Technical Academy in Berlin. He had died in 1896 in a glider accident.

The glider did not perform nearly as well as expected: it would nose-dive into the ground. Once only the front elevator saved Wilbur.

They returned to Dayton and performed their own calculations for airfoil lift and drag.

"They mounted two small surfaces vertically on a bicycle wheel laid on its side. The wheel was free to turn in response to the wind striking the surfaces. One surface was a flat plate mounted perpendicular to the flow. The other was a model wing patterned after the curve used by Lilienthal. According to Lilienthal's table, the model wing set at a five-degree angle of attack would generate enough lift to balance the flat plate exactly." Exposing the device to the natural wind did not yield good results, "so the Wrights mounted the horizontal wheel to the front of a bicycle to create a steady flow." [1] In a steady wind, which was produced by riding the bicycle up and down the streets of Dayton as fast as possible, the lift generated by air rushing over the surface of the curved airfoil would be balanced against the drag on the flat airfoil. If the lift on the curved airfoil and the drag on the straight airfoil were equal, the wheel would not revolve. If the lift were greater than the drag, the wheel would revolve in one direction; if the drag were greater than the lift, it would revolve in the other direction."

"They set the curved airfoil at the angle stated in Lilienthal's tables. The wheel revolved—proving the lift and drag were not equal and the drag exceeded the lift that was generated. An error existed either somewhere in Lilienthal's work or the multiplier he had used in his equation to describe lift, called Smeaton's coefficient, was incorrect. This number, with a value of 0.005, had been developed by the 18th-century English engineer John Smeaton to design windmills and had been accepted as true for almost 150 years." - Peter L. Jakab. Visions of a Flying Machine – The Wright Brothers and the Process of Invention, Washington and London: Smithsonian Institution, 1990, pp. 122-123.

Their wind tunnel model, measurements, and revised calculations and table are on display at the Smithsonian.

So, when faced with a "professional’s educated opinion and publications", my question is "may I see your working model and test data?"

 

[Patman]

This topic is getting very close to being locked, which is truly sad. Keep it on topic Brian (Marty). You have been warned.

 

[goodvibes]

Marty's really showing contempt for this boards moderators and their 'little' freinds. Always some nice unneeded adjectives to help turn the knife a bit more and spinning our wheels by playing both sides depending on which will help him seem correct at the moment. Cut bait. Devils advocate is one thing, Brian is another.