Modern Motor Oil Esters

MolaKule · Aug 5, 2004

quote:

North American manufacturers are ramping up gas to liquid plants and closing down napthenic base manufacturing facilities.

Again, nothing to do with the topic in question, but there are a few NA refiners still left to supply naphtenic oils for blenders.

Naphthenic oils are primarily used as solvents for "thinning" and as mineral oil additive solvers for paraffininc base oils.

[ August 06, 2004, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]

Brian Reid · Aug 5, 2004

quote:

MolaKule:
Mr Reid,

As I recall you raised the topic of API as the final authority on lubricating fluids .....

Never.

quote:

... and you seemed to indicate that you had compelling research data to show this is true.

You'll have to quote me exactly since you're recalling something I am unfamiliar with.

quote:

Mr Reid's profile indicates that he is an engineer ....

And yours indicates you're a "physicist".

Of course, without your name and address and the name of the school from which your graduated and the year, you could be a high school kid with a large vocabulary.

quote:

[Amsoil's XL7500 is a group III base oil, so one cannot point to it as a synthetic base oil having API approval.

http://www.amsoil.com/products/xlf.htm

"AMSOIL SAE 5W-30 XL-7500 Synthetic Motor Oil"

Are you saying Amsoil is lying?

Brian Reid · Aug 5, 2004

quote:

MolaKule:
Please present your API information that shows that polyolesters or di-esters cause rusting and seal problems.

While I never made any claims along these lines, I do see that in another thread this was posted:

"There are a number of SAE Technical Papers, for those with access to them, that either mention or discuss in more detail seal compatibility and other issues in selecting a base stock:

650082 Long-Life Motor Oils

740118 Use of Synthetic Lubricants in Multigrade Motor Oils

840185 Effects of Synthetic Lubricants on Standard Rubber Compounds

841366 Synthetics as Future Diesel Engine Lubricants

871273 Synthetic Automotive Lubricants--Performance and Protection

922348 Use of Low-Viscosity, Low-Volatility Basestocks in Formulation of High Performance Motor Oils

951026 Advances in High Performance Synthetic Oil Technology

981444 Advanced Synthetic Passenger Vehicle Engine Oils for Extended Oil Drain Performance

2001-1-2974 Fluoroelastomer Compatibility With Advanced Jet Engine Oils"

On page 48 of my SAE publication catalog I find:

Elastomer Technology: Fuels, Oils, Fluids and Thermoplastics ISBN 0-7680-0758-5, 132 pp., 16 Papers, Paperbound 2001. $79.95 Order No. SP-1611

which is a bit pricey for a short discussion, but someone reading this may have a copy.

G-MAN · Aug 5, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by Brian Reid:
"AMSOIL SAE 5W-30 XL-7500 Synthetic Motor Oil"

Are you saying Amsoil is lying?

Lying about what? It's common knowledge that Amsoil switched to Group III base oil for the XL-7500 oils a couple of years ago. Click here.

Brian Reid · Aug 5, 2004

quote:

G-Man II:

Brian Reid:

"AMSOIL SAE 5W-30 XL-7500 Synthetic Motor Oil"

Are you saying Amsoil is lying?

Someone had written:

"Amsoil's XL7500 is a group III base oil, so one cannot point to it as a synthetic base oil having API approval."

Hemidart · Aug 6, 2004

I am not a expert by no means....but this thread set off a red light.

My buddy built a Chevy rat motor a few years ago. It's a newer block with a one piece main seal. This guy has been building engines since the 50's and I respect his opinions on things.

Anyhow...He is a firm beliver in Redline. He uses it in everything he drives.

Well the other day I met him at a car meet and he brought his 69 Camero with the rat motor he built. I was looking at it and notice it had a bad oil leak coming from the rear main seal. I asked him about it and he said that he replaced it about six months after the build when it first started leaking and that it started leaking again about a year after that.

I am curious now if it has anything to do with the redline.

thedawk · Aug 6, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by Brian Reid:
[QB]

MolaKule:
Mr Reid,

As I recall you raised the topic of API as the final authority on lubricating fluids .....

Click to expand...

Never.

quote:

... and you seemed to indicate that you had compelling research data to show this is true.

Click to expand...

You'll have to quote me exactly since you're recalling something I am unfamiliar with.

Here's your quote Brian :

Brian Reid
Member
Member # 4694

posted 08-05-2004 03:42 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MolaKule:
You can debate Redline at will, but if you want to debate specifics, please see:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=007563
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What specifics?

Chemical and tribological theories are all well and good, but chemical and tribological theories have brought us things like DexCool, Dowgard, a half-dozen rustproofings that caused rust, dashboards that split open, and Mobil 1 aviation oil.

How about SAE papers, certifications, field tests, and other real world data?

For example, two brands mentioned - Red Line and Silkolene - aren't API licensees:

http://api-ep.api.org/industry/index.cfm?bitmask=002007007003000000#

(Fuchs, parent of Silkolene, is a licensee but only for CHALLENGER SPEED, FUCHS TITAN, and LABO brands).

which means they haven't even met an API sequence test.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 34 | From: Silver Spring, MD | Registered: Aug 2004 | IP: Logged |

Now, from this API site link: http://api-ec.api.org/about/index.c...=display_body&er=1&bitmask=001002003002000000

The very first sentence in their presentation is as quoted: "Engine Oil Licensing and Certification System (EOLCS)
API's Engine Oil Licensing and Certification System (EOLCS) is a voluntary licensing and certification program that authorizes engine oil marketers who meet specified requirements to use the API Engine Oil Quality Marks—the API Service Symbol "Donut" and Certification Mark "Starburst." "

It's voluntary! It's voluntary for the oil company to pay API or whoever in order to have the API donut and I suppose even more to have the donut and the starburst certification. POLITICS!

Jay · Aug 6, 2004

This table from, Lubrication Fundamentals 2nd Edition(2001) twice mentions hydrolytic stability as a weakness of certain esters:

code:

Synthetic Advantages vs Mineral Oil Limiting Properties

SHF (PAO) high temp stability solvency/detergency*

long life seal compatibility*

low temp fluidity

high VI

Improved wear protection

low volatility, oil economy

compatibility with mineral oils

no wax

Organic Esters high temp stability seal compatibility

long life mineral oil compatibility

low temp fluidity antirust*

solvency/detergency antiwear and extreme pressure*

hydrolytic stability

Phosphate Esters fire resistancy seal compatibility

lubricating ability low VI

metal corrosion*

hydrolytic stability

*Limiting property that can be overcome by formulation chemistry.

I notice that the asterisk is missing from "hydrolytic stability".

(I omitted "polyglycols" from the table because I'm tired of typing)

Brian Reid · Aug 6, 2004

quote:

thedawk:

As I recall you raised the topic of API as the final authority on lubricating fluids .....

Here's your quote Brian :

For example, two brands mentioned - Red Line and Silkolene - aren't API licensees:

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I don't see the words "final authority".

I don't see the word "final".

I don't see the word "authority".

That's 0 for "the topic of API as the final authority on lubricating fluids"

What I do see is that two brands haven't passed a de minimus API sequence test and been certified as meeting Briggs & Stratton's recommendations for a 3.5 hp lawnmower engine.

The final authority, of course, is use in real engines in the real world.

For example, field tests on a statistically valid sample of vehicles using a motor oil formulated with a Modern Motor Oil Ester base against a control of, say, Mobil 1 of the same viscosity.

Brian Reid · Aug 6, 2004

quote:

thedawk:
It's voluntary! It's voluntary for the oil company to pay API or whoever in order to have the API donut and I suppose even more to have the donut and the starburst certification.

The ACEA standards are voluntry.

Getting up and going to work every day is voluntary.

Where is the surprise?

thedawk · Aug 6, 2004

OK Brian,
It's obvious that you are not going to admit that I am right.

Just kidding of course. All this talk about oil is making me want to change my oil or something. I think I'll put some Redline in the motorcycle now.

thedawk

Brian Reid · Aug 6, 2004

quote:

thedawk:
It's obvious that you are not going to admit that I am right.

As soon as you are.

MolaKule · Aug 6, 2004

quote:

650082 Long-Life Motor Oils

740118 Use of Synthetic Lubricants in Multigrade Motor Oils

840185 Effects of Synthetic Lubricants on Standard Rubber Compounds

841366 Synthetics as Future Diesel Engine Lubricants

871273 Synthetic Automotive Lubricants--Performance and Protection

922348 Use of Low-Viscosity, Low-Volatility Basestocks in Formulation of High Performance Motor Oils

951026 Advances in High Performance Synthetic Oil Technology

981444 Advanced Synthetic Passenger Vehicle Engine Oils for Extended Oil Drain Performance

2001-1-2974 Fluoroelastomer Compatibility With Advanced Jet Engine Oils"

I would say that the last paper is non-seqitur since advanced jet engine oils use complex esters and advanced additives that are not used in terrestrial IC engine oils. I know, I do this for a living.

Would you care to quote from any of the above references that supports your contention?

quote:

And yours indicates you're a "physicist".

Of course, without your name and address and the name of the school from which your graduated and the year, you could be a high school kid with a large vocabulary.

And since you hide behind firewalls, we can't really know for sure you whom you are for real either.

And would you care to list your real name and curriculum vitae?

You're right, for a high school kid, I know a lot of Latin words.

MolaKule · Aug 6, 2004

Posted by Marty on 8/04/04 ay 1:53:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=007268;p=2

quote:

There are a number of SAE Technical Papers, for those with access to them, that either mention or discuss in more detail seal compatibility and other issues in selecting a base stock:

650082 Long-Life Motor Oils

740118 Use of Synthetic Lubricants in Multigrade Motor Oils

840185 Effects of Synthetic Lubricants on Standard Rubber Compounds

841366 Synthetics as Future Diesel Engine Lubricants

871273 Synthetic Automotive Lubricants--Performance and Protection

922348 Use of Low-Viscosity, Low-Volatility Basestocks in Formulation of High Performance Motor Oils

951026 Advances in High Performance Synthetic Oil Technology

981444 Advanced Synthetic Passenger Vehicle Engine Oils for Extended Oil Drain Performance

2001-1-2974 Fluoroelastomer Compatibility With Advanced Jet Engine Oils

Hmmm!

biodiesel · Aug 6, 2004

Now I'm really confused.

Is there ever going to be a definitive answer to the skepticism surrounding esters or are we just going to continue to throw out guesstimates for the next ten years?

What is it/will it take for us to come up with factual information regarding this subject?

buster · Aug 6, 2004

quote:

What is it/will it take for us to come up with factual information regarding this subject?

Thats what I'm wondering. Whats the argument anyway, I forgot?

I can't add anything because I know nothing on the subject. Only thing I've been told by different oil makers is that a high ester based oil is not desirable. And based on UOAs from BITOG RL isn' that impressive for a DAILY driver oil. Are we debating ester percentages here or full ester based oils?

MolaKule · Aug 6, 2004

My view is that you don't have to be concerned.

Modern esters used in modern oil formulations are safe.

People with vandeta's against Redline or Motul or whomever, and veiled inferences won't change that.

buster · Aug 6, 2004

Check this Out

[ August 06, 2004, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

Brian Reid · Aug 6, 2004

quote:

MolaKule:
My view is that you don't have to be concerned.

Modern esters used in modern oil formulations are safe.

People with vandeta's against Redline or Motul or whomever, and veiled inferences won't change that.

My opinion is that the S&P 500 will hit 2000 by the end of 2005, that there should be a chicken in every pot, and that Jimmy Hoffa is living as a woman in Argentina.

MolaKule · Aug 6, 2004

Buster, biodiesel,

quote:

So the question is: Do modern Motor Oil Esters, such as described in (but not the only source of ester info)

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000056;p=1#000010

really posess a problem with

a. rust

b. hydrolysis

or

c. seal compatibility

in modern engine oils, hydraulic fluids, and gear lube formulations?

It would be advantageous if you presented chemical and tribological sources/data narrowly focused on the question above for your arguments.

This was the original topic.

Rather than carry on in the Redline thread, this was introduced to narrow the scope of the discussion.

Modern Motor Oil Esters

Similar threads