Modern engines that are relatively fun & reliable?

[BearZDefect]

Originally Posted By: Cujet


There is nothing fun about an engine with a 1 second throttle response.


I agree!

For both opening and closing the throttle. While I understand the reason manufacturers do this, it disengages the driver and thus numbs the driving experience. It is "throttle control for dummies."

I won't claim that all modern engine controls are like that, but I'd guess more than half of those I've driven are. Mind you, I haven't driven most of the hot stuff discussed in this thread.

 

[CBR.worm]

My Infiniti's, you can't tell it is DBW 99% of the time. The BMW is slow to respond in normal mode - especially at low speeds, but in Sport mode it is instant.

Some of the new cars are ridiculously slow to respond, I think they are engineering this in to reduce shock loading on the driveline. My '00 Tundra was old technology DBW and it was instant. There does not have to be a delay, if there is it is by design.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
I had high hopes for the BMW M series cars. But even those are dumbed down for the American market.

Next time you start the engine of your throttle by wire car, quickly jab the throttle all the way down and release. Then quickly put your foot down on the floormat. I'll bet you a dollar the engine does not even start to rev up until your foot is off the pedal and down on the mat.

There is nothing fun about an engine with a 1 second throttle response.

Then, try this with your throttle by wire car, while cruising down the highway, remove your foot from the gas pedal. See if your car slows down rapidly. I'll bet you it doesn't. In fact, I'll bet the throttle remains open and your car decelerates very slowly. All in an attempt to keep catalytic converters hot.

There is nothing fun about this either.


Once the ECM "learned" (there was a 1-2000 mile learning curve), the throttle response in my Magnum was essentially instant. It didn't slow much when lifting the pedal on the highway simply because of the extremely tall gearing. (65MPH was only 1900RPM.)

 

[01rangerxl]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
I had high hopes for the BMW M series cars. But even those are dumbed down for the American market.

Next time you start the engine of your throttle by wire car, quickly jab the throttle all the way down and release. Then quickly put your foot down on the floormat. I'll bet you a dollar the engine does not even start to rev up until your foot is off the pedal and down on the mat.

There is nothing fun about an engine with a 1 second throttle response.

Then, try this with your throttle by wire car, while cruising down the highway, remove your foot from the gas pedal. See if your car slows down rapidly. I'll bet you it doesn't. In fact, I'll bet the throttle remains open and your car decelerates very slowly. All in an attempt to keep catalytic converters hot.

There is nothing fun about this either.


I've been wondering about this, not specifically with the M series or any real performance car, but with modern cars in general. A lot of cars with high HP V6s (for a regular family car) seem to be dogs off the line.

I tow a trailer frequently, so of course to your average new Altima or Camry driver pulling up behind me at a light, my truck must be too slow for them and they move over to the next lane. The light turns green, and with pretty moderate throttle input my old pushrod engine truck towing a trailer walks away from their 260 HP car. By the time they catch up, I'm going the the speed limit or slightly over anyway. What's the point of 260 HP if you can't use it?

Of course, eventually any of these cars would easily outrun my truck. With a throttle cable or decent tuning I'd be looking at taillights immediately. But instead they are looking at mine, and really fuming when they see the taillights of the trailer because their car's computer said "nope."

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Cujet
There is nothing fun about an engine with a 1 second throttle response.


Sorry, but none of the above describes my car at all

Throttle response is instant, and in sport mode, almost "too snappy".

Dropping the throttle shut on the highway in a gear, and your speed drags down quickly.


Which car? Is it new or 10 years old? Is it stock, or do you have some mods on it?

I clearly understand that the best aftermarket tunes can make a throttle by wire car very responsive. But, I don't have information on which cars and which tunes are best. Nor do I expect someone who just purchased a new and expensive vehicle to possibly "discard" the powertrain warranty with an aftermarket ECU reprogram.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Cujet
There is nothing fun about an engine with a 1 second throttle response.


Sorry, but none of the above describes my car at all

Throttle response is instant, and in sport mode, almost "too snappy".

Dropping the throttle shut on the highway in a gear, and your speed drags down quickly.


Which car? Is it new or 10 years old? Is it stock, or do you have some mods on it?

I clearly understand that the best aftermarket tunes can make a throttle by wire car very responsive. But, I don't have information on which cars and which tunes are best. Nor do I expect someone who just purchased a new and expensive vehicle to possibly "discard" the powertrain warranty with an aftermarket ECU reprogram.


The M5 in my sig, which is 11 years old. Stock, no tune.

 

[rationull]

Originally Posted By: 01rangerxl

I tow a trailer frequently, so of course to your average new Altima or Camry driver pulling up behind me at a light, my truck must be too slow for them and they move over to the next lane. The light turns green, and with pretty moderate throttle input my old pushrod engine truck towing a trailer walks away from their 260 HP car. By the time they catch up, I'm going the the speed limit or slightly over anyway. What's the point of 260 HP if you can't use it?

Of course, eventually any of these cars would easily outrun my truck. With a throttle cable or decent tuning I'd be looking at taillights immediately. But instead they are looking at mine, and really fuming when they see the taillights of the trailer because their car's computer said "nope."


It seems like there must be something else going on here. Probably more [censored] automatic transmission tuning than throttle.

 

[supton]

Just a guess here (haven't followed all of the thread) but I suspect DBW intentionally limits how fast the throttle changes for reasons of emissions. Going WOT or (? full shut?) means the engine is going to have an abrupt transition, and the air/fuel ratio is likely to be far off, causing the emissions systems (mostly the cat) to be not be able to respond.

Years ago I drove someone's late 80's Escort. Stickshift, but when I let off to shift it'd just keep revin', it seemed. Had to let off before hitting the clutch. My Izusu truck did not do that, don't recall my Subaru either (both 1986 models, with carbs--the Escort may have been EFI). Wife's '01 Civic and now her '11 Camry both have/had the same slow to fall engine speed.

After looking engine torque curves for a bit, I think people are losing track of what "peak" horsepower buys you. Real easy to make high peak numbers--but off the line, if you can't get the rev's up fast enough, it's going to be a dog. Need deep gearing and/or a loose convertor to get that; and those tend to work against mpg's. Torque management might also be at play, to keep heat low(er) in the transmission (and it probably works hand-in-hand with the vehicle stability and/or traction control--if you limit torque available off the line for all conditions, maybe you can limit wheelspin a bit easier).

I bet that 3.0L V6 rev's right up near its torque peak if you get on it while towing, and works for a bit using that slippage to its advantage (torque multiplication, at least until slippage is reduced). It may be that you have more hp off the line, at those low rev's, than the Altima/etc.

That, or you forgot to tell them they were in a race.

 

[01rangerxl]

Originally Posted By: supton

That, or you forgot to tell them they were in a race.

Well I usually get the angry cut you off with no turn signals pass after that.

People HATE trailers.

But I have been behind "that guy" with the beat up trailer going 10 under the limit, weaving, with no lights and dry rotted tires that are just waiting to blow, so I can kind of understand where the trailer hate comes from.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: supton
Just a guess here (haven't followed all of the thread) but I suspect DBW intentionally limits how fast the throttle changes for reasons of emissions.


I read in an article that they can eliminate some compression ratio safety margin with DBW. Basically, if you are suddenly stepping on the gas pedal the sudden increase of air will not cause the mixture to be too lean and knock, and a sudden release of gas pedal from WOT will not cause the mixture to be too rich and misfire. Since the throttle, ignition, and injection are all controlled at the same time, it will always be safe and you can increase the compression safely.

 

[supton]

Now that is an interesting proposition: perhaps throttle response could be increased (on some vehicles that is) by using premium. I mean, the ECU might be keeping track of how much timing it has to pull back (or can run altogether), giving it a prediction as to octane level and perhaps how it can alter throttle response so as to avoid ping.

Cheap experiment I'd think.

 

[SteveSRT8]

In the perspective of the PCM controlling the engine the throttle blade would move like the minute hand on a clock!

Slowly!

DBW was implemented to allow for stability controls and powertrain tweaks, not to control engine knock. Throttle response does improve on many vehicles when higher octane fuel is used, but that is due to advancing the timing, not opening or closing the throttle plate.