Mobil AP, strange HTHS?

[buster]

https://mobiloil.com/en/article/why-the-...-tested-results

If you look at the graph mid way down, you'll notice the AP oils tend to dip a bit in viscosity. However, they are far more stable at resisting oxidation which is far more important.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I hadn't seen the MSDS and that was only one of the possibilities I had suggested, another one being a high-shearing VII.

And we wonder why oil companies are reluctant to put information on a PDS, when we are overanalysing even an MSDS, which is, really, worse than useless.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: buster
https://mobiloil.com/en/article/why-the-...-tested-results

If you look at the graph mid way down, you'll notice the AP oils tend to dip a bit in viscosity. However, they are far more stable at resisting oxidation which is far more important.

Impressive claims of the thin-film oxidation test there, buster!

If these claims are true, and they are probably true, based on the accuracy of the MSDS, this leaves GTL as the only possible base oil for the Mobil 1 AP. I would guess about 90% GTL with a splash of about 5 - 10% PAO and a few percent ester.

The unusually low HTHSV for the given KV100 is still strange though.

It looks like with the AP the base-oil quality of Mobil 1 (AP version) has now reached or surpassed that of Pennzoil Platinum, which is GTL (and claims "Additionally, keeps pistons up to 8% cleaner than Mobil 1™ and up to 17% cleaner than Valvoline® SynPower®").

 

[PimTac]

You cannot use a MSDS or SDS as they are called in some places as a definitive ingredient list for a product. That is not their primary purpose.

They are used for information for people handling and transporting these products so they are aware of any hazardous components. Also it gives reference to protection requirements for each. Emergency services use them in cases of fire or spill to give them the information on how to proceed.

I sense a lot of speculation here trying to determine the composition of a baseoil. The only ones who know have confidentiality agreements in place and it is in their best interest not to tell.

 

[CharlieBauer]

Originally Posted By: buster
https://mobiloil.com/en/article/why-the-...-tested-results

If you look at the graph mid way down, you'll notice the AP oils tend to dip a bit in viscosity. However, they are far more stable at resisting oxidation which is far more important.


That's a great image. It really shows how oil quickly thickens significantly towards the end of an extended oci.

On the x-axis, each tick must be 5,000 miles. That means comparative synthetics are good for approximately 9,000 to 13,000 miles.

For the y-axis, it would be interesting to know what the maximum line represents either as a number or a percentage. What we can say though is that the amount of thinning that goes on is far less than the amount of allowed thickening, but also that M1 AP seems to thin more than comparative synthetics.

Maybe that is why the viscosity starts higher, although that is for the KV not the HTHSV.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Soooo....what about that abnormally low VI which indicates the presence of AN ???

I hadn't seen the MSDS and that was only one of the possibilities I had suggested, another one being a high-shearing VII. What about you harshly criticizing others' posts without providing any useful information?


You were making statements without even the remotest facts to back them up, in a thread that someone was asking for advice.

Statements that turned out to be purely speculation, and not even half educated guesses.

Why shouldn't you be taken to task, after all the recent statements of fact that fall into exactly the same speculative basket.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Soooo....what about that abnormally low VI which indicates the presence of AN ???

I hadn't seen the MSDS and that was only one of the possibilities I had suggested, another one being a high-shearing VII. What about you harshly criticizing others' posts without providing any useful information?

You were making statements without even the remotest facts to back them up, in a thread that someone was asking for advice.

Statements that turned out to be purely speculation, and not even half educated guesses.

Why shouldn't you be taken to task, after all the recent statements of fact that fall into exactly the same speculative basket.

You haven't even provided "a not even half-educated guess" yet. There is still zero info on this thread by you. I always pointed out whether I was speculating or not and commented on different possibilities. Your criticism often amounted to personal attacks, which have no place on this discussion board.

Anyway, I've now solved this puzzle and I'm giving you the chance to post the solution first since you've been such a critic.

 

[PimTac]

I'm not sure what has been solved? I went to the Mobil website and tracked down the SDS. There is no mention of GTL, Fischer-Tropsch, alkylated napthalenes, or much else. The SDS mentions synthetic base stocks, decene homopolymer hydrogenated, and zddp which are common to many other synthetic oils. Most oil companies are usually vague in describing exactly what is in their products for obvious reasons.

https://www.exxonmobil.com/Passenger-Veh...20/1371/msds-US

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: PimTac
I'm not sure what has been solved? I went to the Mobil website and tracked down the SDS. There is no mention of GTL, Fischer-Tropsch, alkylated napthalenes, or much else. The SDS mentions synthetic base stocks, decene homopolymer hydrogenated, and zddp which are common to many other synthetic oils. Most oil companies are usually vague in describing exactly what is in their products for obvious reasons.

https://www.exxonmobil.com/Passenger-Veh...20/1371/msds-US




That shows 60-70% PAO FWIW.

 

[1JZ_E46]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: PimTac
I'm not sure what has been solved? I went to the Mobil website and tracked down the SDS. There is no mention of GTL, Fischer-Tropsch, alkylated napthalenes, or much else. The SDS mentions synthetic base stocks, decene homopolymer hydrogenated, and zddp which are common to many other synthetic oils. Most oil companies are usually vague in describing exactly what is in their products for obvious reasons.

https://www.exxonmobil.com/Passenger-Veh...20/1371/msds-US




That shows 60-70% PAO FWIW.


Also can be seen by its low pour point and high flash point. The 5W-30 should have a higher flash point (as its thicker), but its actually lower than the 0W-20 due to less low-vis PAO. Regardless of any of that technical data, AP lacks a good value proposition (IMO) over other oils that are half the price and that have been shown to go 10k miles with ease. Maybe at the $35/5qt mark it makes sense.

 

[CharlieBauer]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: PimTac

https://www.exxonmobil.com/Passenger-Veh...20/1371/msds-US

That shows 60-70% PAO FWIW.


For 0w20. The 5w30 has 5%-10% and the 5w20 has 10%-20%.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: PimTac
I'm not sure what has been solved?

It's regarding the OP's question. We can never know but only guess the ingredients in an oil unless it's explicitly told.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: PimTac
I'm not sure what has been solved?

It's regarding the OP's question. We can never know but only guess the ingredients in an oil unless it's explicitly told.


Wasn't the question why an oil that's ILSAC has an ILSAC HTHS, versus the Shell (unnamed), which looks like it's an ACEA spec ?

How was that solved/answered with speculation as to the Mobil's base oil composition ?

Originally Posted By: dole
1# AP 5W-30, 11.7 @100C, but HTHS only 3.0, comparing shell 5W-30, 12@100C, BUT HTHS 3.5. Huge difference, why is it so? Mobil formulate it on purpose? Isn't it true that higher HTHS is a better thing?


OP, the Mobil oil is an ILSAC grade, in it's specification, it meets GF-5, which is an energy conserving grade. The HTHS of energy conserving 30 grades is typically around the 3 Mark, 2.9 to 3.1 or 3.2 being typical.

The Shell oil that you mention (would be good if you could tell us which it was) at 3.5 is typical of oils that meet various of the ACEA A3/B4, or C3 type specs, which have a minimum of 3.5. Some of the Heavy Duty specs have a similar minimum.

These ACEA type specs aren't "economy" grades like the ILSAC oils.

A5/B5 are the ACEA specs for lower HTHS oils more inclined to economy.

For example this Shell oil
http://www.shell.com/motorist/oils-lubri...a-sn-5w-30.html

meets GF-5, and A5/B5, so undoubtedly would have an HTHS closer to 3.

This Mobil product
http://www.mobil.com/english-NG/Passenger-Vehicle-Lube/pds/GLXXMobil-1-FS-5W30

Meets A3/B4, so MUST have an HTHS >=3.5, although it's not listed.

Ironically, that data sheet only shows KV40, not KV100.

I'm not going to speculate on what that implies, and it's suggestion as to what the mix of basestocks and additives that only listing a KV40 implies, I'll leave that to others more qualified to speculate.

Oil manufacturers are at liberty to put what they want on data sheets.

 

[Gokhan]

That's not really what the OP asked and your general post about ACEA A3/B4 HTHSV didn't really help.

A3/B4 oils do have higher HTHSV by definition but they also have higher KV100 than typical non-A3/B4 for xW-30 grades. No other xW-30 has KV100 that high and HTHSV that low. That's the puzzle here. Now, I know that you have been criticizing my posts without even understanding what I've been trying to solve.

 

[1JZ_E46]

There's lots of Group IV/V basestock that will not show up in a SDS. There's also some GTL that won't show up in a SDS. For example, Amsoil SS shows nothing in its SDS (when it is clearly a GIV/V oil) and PUP shows no Fischer-Tropsch in its SDS.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
That's not really what the OP asked and your general post about ACEA A3/B4 HTHSV didn't really help.

A3/B4 oils do have higher HTHSV by definition but they also have higher KV100 than typical non-A3/B4 for xW-30 grades. No other xW-30 has KV100 that high and HTHSV that low. That's the puzzle here. Now, I know that you have been criticizing my posts without even understanding what I've been trying to solve.


OK, the oil companies BUILT these oils for two completely different purposes.

Speculation about what makes them up (ultra low VI, when it's high VI, AN when there's no evidence of either AN OR, the low VI that induced that) is just that, speculation, without helping any understanding...cause it was wrong...

 

[4WD]

I'd say this. ^^^
Mobil is known to both produce and employ multiple base oils - you think they are all one pony - you will be wrong. M1 now shoots for 20k - not a linear challenge (and right on the bottle) so they will load the 0w20 with PAO - and use less and less in the two (respectively) 5w's ... (with GIII+)
These are patterns of companies - and yes - plenty MSDS's in my life used only for safety.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
That's not really what the OP asked and your general post about ACEA A3/B4 HTHSV didn't really help.

A3/B4 oils do have higher HTHSV by definition but they also have higher KV100 than typical non-A3/B4 for xW-30 grades. No other xW-30 has KV100 that high and HTHSV that low. That's the puzzle here. Now, I know that you have been criticizing my posts without even understanding what I've been trying to solve.

OK, the oil companies BUILT these oils for two completely different purposes.

Speculation about what makes them up (ultra low VI, when it's high VI, AN when there's no evidence of either AN OR, the low VI that induced that) is just that, speculation, without helping any understanding...cause it was wrong...

You are still not getting the key puzzle here that no mainstream oil, let alone a full synthetic, has KV100 almost 12 cSt with HTHSV only 3.0 cSt, ACEA A3/B4 or not.

 

[PimTac]

Gokhan,

I still want to know where the alkylated napthalenes are. In post #7 you stated the presence of such. Where is the source of that information?

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: PimTac
Gokhan,

I still want to know where the alkylated napthalenes are. In post #7 you stated the presence of such. Where is the source of that information?

There is no alkylated naphthalene. That was just a suggestion before I found out the viscosity index.