Mobil 1 5W30 ESP, 5000 mi, 2018 VW Golf R

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Mar 20, 2022
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See the third row (sample) only. The previous two were using a different oil.
Engine 40,000-45,000 mi
Oil in use approx 9 mo, usually short trips
What do you guys think about the Base Number and Oxidation?
The main reason to run this oil is to reduce intake deposits on the Direct Injection engine. Any reason to run this oil longer or shorter?

oil analysis Screenshot 2024-04-02 022653.jpg
 
Let me guess the previous two oils: Sample#1 Castrol Euro 5W40 API SN. Sample #2 Castrol Euro 0W40 API SN.

Your current run looks great. TBN is getting low, but I think oxidation is fine. It's hard because there is carryover from the previous oil which is influencing the score. I think ESP normally starts around 30 but the previous oil had a low oxidation that weighs that result down. Ideally, you get a virgin sample of the same stuff that goes in your sump so you can do a direct comparison, and two runs in a row of the same oil to get rid of carryover influence. Companies have been known to change formulations, so you may think the M1 ESP you're running starts with an oxidation of 30 when you might have a newer formulation with a lower starting oxidation. That's why I said "Ideally, you get a virgin sample of the same stuff that goes in your sump"

M1 ESP 5W30 is not a long drain oil, but I think in your application it could easily go 7000 miles.
 
See the third row (sample) only. The previous two were using a different oil.
Engine 40,000-45,000 mi
Oil in use approx 9 mo, usually short trips
What do you guys think about the Base Number and Oxidation?
The main reason to run this oil is to reduce intake deposits on the Direct Injection engine. Any reason to run this oil longer or shorter?

View attachment 211782

Contrary to the opinion of others factually M1 ESP 5w30 is a long drain euro oil which is to be used with ULSD/ULSG. TBN will be slightly lower but that's not a concern since the US has been on ULSG for a couple of years now.

The report is fine.
 
See the third row (sample) only. The previous two were using a different oil.
Engine 40,000-45,000 mi
Oil in use approx 9 mo, usually short trips
What do you guys think about the Base Number and Oxidation?
The main reason to run this oil is to reduce intake deposits on the Direct Injection engine. Any reason to run this oil longer or shorter?

View attachment 211782
Older version of ESP has esters. It will have higher oxidation from get go.
Looks fine.
 
Contrary to the opinion of others factually M1 ESP 5w30 is a long drain euro oil which is to be used with ULSD/ULSG. TBN will be slightly lower but that's not a concern since the US has been on ULSG for a couple of years now.

The report is fine.
My "opinion" is based on data:
c3 vs a3b4.jpg


I'm not saying it's a short drain (minimum 6 TBN), but I am saying it won't go as long as an A3/B4, which *is* considered long drain (TBN 10 or higher). We all know that depending on driving patterns, even a 6 TBN can go over 10k miles. And I said based on this UOA that 7000 was easily attainable.
 
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My "opinion" is based on data:
View attachment 211836

I'm not saying it's a short drain (minimum 6 TBN), but I am saying it won't go as long as an A3/B4, which *is* considered long drain (TBN 10 or higher). We all know that depending on driving patterns, even a 6 TBN can go over 10k miles. And I said based on this UOA that 7000 was easily attainable.

This oil falls under ACEA C3 which is also considered long drain and it must meet all the same performance requirements of A3/B4. This oil has all the applicable long drain euro certs so your statement was factually incorrect. TBN is for the most part irrelevant on ULSG/D because the combustion of these fuels don't generate the same amount of acids (sulfuric) which require neutralizing.
 
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This oil falls under ACEA C3 which is also considered long drain and it must meet all the same performance requirements of A3/B4. This oil has all the applicable long drain euro certs so your statement was factually incorrect.
If you want to dig your heels in despite the 10.0 vs 6.0 minimum TBN specs, go right ahead.
 
If you want to dig your heels in despite the 10.0 vs 6.0 minimum TBN specs, go right ahead.
I'm not digging my heals in. I've told you the facts . TBN is not as relevant on ULSG. See my edited comment. You can't use TBN alone to determine if an oil is "long drain" which is what you're choosing to do.
 
@BMWTurboDzl
Can you link to something that talks about this ULSG and extended drain intervals? I’d like to learn more.
I think it stems from the Sulfur in the US fuels are not as high as they once were & there is no longer a need to have higher additive package/TBN to neutralize the chemical reaction that happens with higher amounts of sulfur. I would also say that since emissions are getting tighter it reduces the additive package & therefore reduces the TBN as well. Although, I don't know much other than what I read on here over the years I believe what's being mentioned is generally true but may not be the only sole reason for lower TBN these days.
 
I think it stems from the Sulfur in the US fuels are not as high as they once were & there is no longer a need to have higher additive package/TBN to neutralize the chemical reaction that happens with higher amounts of sulfur. I would also say that since emissions are getting tighter it reduces the additive package & therefore reduces the TBN as well. Although, I don't know much other than what I read on here over the years I believe what's being mentioned is generally true but may not be the only sole reason for lower TBN these days.
@BMWTurboDzl
Thanks. I'd still like to see some independent documentation and not just "trust" a random user on a forum. A link would be ideal.
 
@BMWTurboDzl
Thanks. I'd still like to see some independent documentation and not just "trust" a random user on a forum. A link would be ideal.
I just scoured this quick link regarding marine fuels but the concept is the same.

https://www.man-es.com/docs/default-source/service-letters/sl2014-593.pdf?sfvrsn=7bfeb1d6_4
"1. Low-BN cylinder oilsUntil now, marine low speed enginesand their lubricants have been optimised for operation on heavy fuel oil(HFO) with a high sulphur (S) content.During combustion, the S is convertedto sulphur trioxide (SO3). In combinationwith water from the combustion and thescavenge air, SO3 forms sulphuric acid(H2SO4). When the liner temperaturedrops below the dew point of sulphuric acid and water, a corrosive mixturecondenses on the liner wall. The highalkaline lubricants (high-BN oils) neutralise the acid and prevent corrosion ofpiston rings and cylinder liner surfaces.When operating on fuels with less than0.1 % S, such as distillates, ultra-lowsulphur fuel oil (ULSFO) with less than0.1% S, LNG, methanol, ethane andLPG, only small amounts of sulphuric acid are formed in the combustionchamber."

"The general lubrication strategy is to use a high-BN cylinder oil (70-100 BN)when operating on high-sulphur fuelsand a low-BN oil (15-40 BN) when operating on low-sulphur fuel."
 
Here is something to consider in regard to TBN:

 
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The Chevron doc is especially interesting. It doesn't cover the scope of this topic enough, but it still helps. Thanks!

It is officially long-drain oil.
Again, I'd like some documentation. Just saying something is so on the internet doesn't mean anything without data to back it up. I used the Lubrizol oil spec chart. I'm not saying I don't believe you, but I did a fair bit of Googling using ULSG and extended/long drain oil keywords, and couldn't find anything meaningful about why C3 is considered long-drain, other than just "it is, trust us".

What I *DID* find were several references to C3 being considered an extended drain oil, which is cool. That helps, but I can't find a why.

Contrary to the opinion of others factually M1 ESP 5w30 is a long drain euro oil which is to be used with ULSD/ULSG. TBN will be slightly lower but that's not a concern since the US has been on ULSG for a couple of years now.

The report is fine.
You had an opportunity to educate me, and still do. But directing a backhanded comment at me instead saying "Hey himemsys, I know there's a huge difference in minimum TBN for these oils, but here's why ACEA C3 is considered a long drain oil despite the much lower TBN requirement" didn't help matters.

I already understand TBN is not the only method for expressing oil life. I understand oxidation is another tool for expressing oil life. That's one of the reasons I switched analysis labs to Oil Analyzers, to get that oxidation value. And finally, I already understand that whether an oil is considered "extended drain" or not, most oils these days can last 5k under severe use and 10k+ with light/highway use. It's possible, under the right circumstances for an extended drain oil to be done at 5k, depending on engine type, driving style and excessive short trips in harsh climates. And it's possible for a budget oil to last 10k+ under ideal conditions.
 
The Chevron doc is especially interesting. It doesn't cover the scope of this topic enough, but it still helps. Thanks!


Again, I'd like some documentation. Just saying something is so on the internet doesn't mean anything without data to back it up. I used the Lubrizol oil spec chart. I'm not saying I don't believe you, but I did a fair bit of Googling using ULSG and extended/long drain oil keywords, and couldn't find anything meaningful about why C3 is considered long-drain, other than just "it is, trust us".

What I *DID* find were several references to C3 being considered an extended drain oil, which is cool. That helps, but I can't find a why.


You had an opportunity to educate me, and still do. But directing a backhanded comment at me instead saying "Hey himemsys, I know there's a huge difference in minimum TBN for these oils, but here's why ACEA C3 is considered a long drain oil despite the much lower TBN requirement" didn't help matters.

I already understand TBN is not the only method for expressing oil life. I understand oxidation is another tool for expressing oil life. That's one of the reasons I switched analysis labs to Oil Analyzers, to get that oxidation value. And finally, I already understand that whether an oil is considered "extended drain" or not, most oils these days can last 5k under severe use and 10k+ with light/highway use. It's possible, under the right circumstances for an extended drain oil to be done at 5k, depending on engine type, driving style and excessive short trips in harsh climates. And it's possible for a budget oil to last 10k+ under ideal conditions.
By the virtue that it is approved for LL04, VW504.00/507.00 and MB229.51, it is long drain oil. Those are ALL long drain approvals.
 
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