MMO, the real deal.

[Mystic]

People know so much about metals today and technology is so advanced if there was a need for a metal to be somewhat porous on its surface I am sure people could achieve that. I have tried to do some research on the internet and apparently graphite in cast iron for skillets results in some porosity for iron in skillets. I think everybody would agree that a limited amount of porosity might be useful in iron used in engines so that oil will cling better plus additives can be used to cause oil to cling to metals. And the rough surface might cause oil and oil supplements to cling.

The bottom line is we don't know for sure. We would have to do a lot of research in a library to find out. And it certainly appears that nobody here, NOBODY, knows with total certainly. For me to be convinced one way or the other I would have to see scientific documentation.

My best guess is that some metals can be somewhat porous under certain conditions. Cast iron skillets certainly seem to be somewhat porous. And there is the example of bronze filter elements.

So somebody go ahead and attack me (I don't mean you Trav) but I don't see anybody coming forward with some sort of solid scientific documentation. Which means nobody here, NOBODY, knows with total certainly. After somebody attacks me personally, I want to see the scientific documentation. Get done with your personal attacks because you don't have the answers, and then let us see the scientific documentation.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Maybe you can shed some light on this.. TIA

https://www.jim.or.jp/journal/e/pdf3/47/09/2259.pdf

They go into engine cylinders and talk about things like this.
Quote:
therefore, the seizure resistance of porous cast iron is superior to that of the non-
porous cast iron


I can see where Zmax could get into the pores of some casted metals but so could oil for that matter, it seems doubtful it could "soak" into something like steel or chrome.
I have no idea but it makes interesting reading.


Exactly. Pretty interesting isn't it?

 

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: Trav
I can see where Zmax could get into the pores of some casted metals but so could oil for that matter, it seems doubtful it could "soak" into something like steel or chrome. I have no idea but it makes interesting reading.

Yup, steel as well, although probably in much lesser quantity. Some metals are more porous than others. Chromium is a tough stuff in this area. Some metals are very dense (a knife blade) and the absorption rate is likely very low. Not zero, but darn close. Some iron (porous - good) piston rings have ceramic coatings (not porous - bad).

Somebody else asked if this would apply to any oil? The Shalvoy / AAS team demonstrated that Exxon Superflo 5w-30 soaked into cast iron, so any motor oil should be able to make this claim. Ditto for the makers of penetrating oils (Liquid Wrench, Break-Free, etc.). The list of 'soakers' is pretty long. Note that this does not imply that 'soaking in' is necessarily a benefit - only that it occurs.

Another user noted the difficulty in welding metals which had been immersed in oil. You can scrub and sand the surface until the cows come home and it will still be very difficult to weld. The entrained oil keeps coming out.

Another user noted the difficulty in painting metals which had been immersed in oil. Actually, it's easy to paint, which is good because you will probably need to do it over and over. Getting the paint to stick is the hard part. Just try and paint a used Marvel Inverse Oiler tank. Good luck. Ask me how I know this.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: dave5358


Another user noted the difficulty in painting metals which had been immersed in oil. Actually, it's easy to paint, which is good because you will probably need to do it over and over. Getting the paint to stick is the hard part. Just try and paint a used Marvel Inverse Oiler tank. Good luck. Ask me how I know this.


Been there done that with the MMO Inverse Oiler tank. LOL

 

[dave5358]

This matter seems to be at a stalemate or stand-off. Several days ago, I wrote to the moderator and asked if the BITOG forum software supported "polling". No response. Some forum software seems to have this as a feature, so that any and everything becomes a poll, whether it is useful or not. As for "soaking into metal", I would be curious as to the consensus of this forum. It would not be scientific, but it still might be interesting.

--

This discussion reminded me of a humorous event that occurred many years ago. At LTV Aerospace, both of their production aircraft (the A-7 Corsair II and the F-8 Crusader) were equipped with Martin-Baker 0-0 ejection seats. That's pronounced Zero-Zero. These hellish devices are a necessary evil for carrier based aircraft. I had absolutely nothing to do with this area, nor did most of the engineers working at LTV, but that did not stop a small clique of engineers from grousing about the Martin-Baker seats. They had their doubts! Strangely, these were all fellows who did not work with these seat assemblies either. Anyhow, this innuendo and pseudo-science grumbling went on for some months and somehow the local US Congressman got into the act. He wanted to know THE TRUTH! Talk about a clown show.

Martin-Baker had an office with a few reps on the LTV campus. But, to put a quick end to the grousing, they sent a test pilot over from England to conduct a demonstration! This guy looked like James Bond with a mustache. On the day of the demo, every salaried employee in the plant found a "reason" to be at Dallas Naval Air Station, which adjoined the LTV plant. Talk about zero-zero work getting done. Even the media got wind of this and sent a news crew for the mini-cam treatment.

They rolled an A-7 out on the ramp. Out walked Mr. English Dapper, in in a 3-piece suit with tie. Without looking left or right, he walked straight out to the A-7, climbed into the cockpit, strapped himself in, closed the canopy and blasted off in this vertical rocket sled. The seat landed about 30 meters from the airframe, with the parachute opening a mere 20-30 feet above the ground. Mr. Dapper then unfastened himself, got up and walked straight back, through the assembled crowd, to a waiting sedan. He never said a single word. His performance was so good that all the LTV employees started clapping and cheering.

You are free to decide if this was science or theater, but that was THE END of grousing about Martin-Baker 0-0 ejection seats.

--

Here a video of a M-B Mark-16 seat going out of an F-35 during a test.

And another video. This is an official Martin-Baker advertising video, complete with music

Finally, this Corsair II aboard the USS Carl Vinson suffered complete hydraulic system failure during a taxi to launch. The pilot survived.

 

[Mystic]

I would and I could go to the local library and research all of this. But I really don't feel like doing that. I did work in steel fabrication for a while and we had the Steel Book and various other information. Steel can be greatly affected by all kinds of different alloys and the methods of production of the steel. And everybody knows or should know that under a microscope machined metal parts are actually rough. It would take a lot of money and special equipment to really produce an extremely smooth surface even under a microscope. The rough surface can trap oil and special additives can make oil cling to metal surfaces.

There are all different kinds of welding and welding improperly done can cause porosity. And a casting improperly done can be somewhat porous. Where I worked the steel hardly seemed to be porous but a cast iron skillet is not the same as a steel W beam. And apparently the cast iron skillet is somewhat porous. People figured all of this stuff out a long time ago. People have been working with metals for thousands of years. It may just require a certain alloy for iron in a skillet to have some degree of limited porosity. Graphite may permit that limited porosity.

I don't have much experience with aluminum and I am not going to try to appear as an expert on anything I don't know about. The experts tend to be experts just in their limited area of research. In any case in aluminum engines there are often iron cylinder liners and iron rings, etc. And sometimes there are ceramic coatings and so forth.

It seems to me that if the iron in an engine had a limited amount of porosity that might be good because if oil penetrated the iron a little bit there would be less wear, especially at start up. But I am not an expert on engine design and I don't know. I worked in the area of structural steel.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Trav
Maybe you can shed some light on this.. TIA

https://www.jim.or.jp/journal/e/pdf3/47/09/2259.pdf

They go into engine cylinders and talk about things like this.
Quote:
therefore, the seizure resistance of porous cast iron is superior to that of the non-
porous cast iron


I can see where Zmax could get into the pores of some casted metals but so could oil for that matter, it seems doubtful it could "soak" into something like steel or chrome.
I have no idea but it makes interesting reading.


Exactly. Pretty interesting isn't it?


I cant contribute anything to this thread one way or the other but i has made for interesting reading.

 

[MrQuackers]

Over 10k views in a week!

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Trav
Maybe you can shed some light on this.. TIA

https://www.jim.or.jp/journal/e/pdf3/47/09/2259.pdf

They go into engine cylinders and talk about things like this.
Quote:
therefore, the seizure resistance of porous cast iron is superior to that of the non-
porous cast iron


I can see where Zmax could get into the pores of some casted metals but so could oil for that matter, it seems doubtful it could "soak" into something like steel or chrome.
I have no idea but it makes interesting reading.


Exactly. Pretty interesting isn't it?


I cant contribute anything to this thread one way or the other but i has made for interesting reading.


Yes very interesting. From what I've gathered, and we seem to be in the same camp is what you've said here: "I can see where Zmax could get into the pores of some casted metals but so could oil for that matter, it seems doubtful it could "soak" into something like steel or chrome." it makes it pretty hard to dispute reading through a lot of the links in this thread.

 

[Mystic]

From what I know about steel I would agree with that also. We have yet to find out if the cast iron used in engines might be porous enough for oil or oil supplements to penetrate the metal to some degree. But as you say the motor oil would penetrate also if some product like ZMax penetrates.

If there is no soaking into the metal the oil (and any oil supplements) might cling to the surfaces to some degree because of the roughness of the surface. It might take some time for the oil to drain completely off.

And you demarpaint know a lot about painting. So I know that you know it takes a lot to clean metal that had oil on it.

Unless we can find out more about the porosity of cast iron that is about all that can be said.

 

[Trajan]

Twist the physics all you want, solid metal is not porous. It does *not* diffuse into a gas tank, cylinder wall, engine blocks.

And no, using some chemical to clean off oil you put on a piece of metal does not mean that said oil diffused into it.

 

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
"diffuse"

Diffuse? Buffy, we need you. Now!

 

[Trajan]

If that's the best you've got, then we'll conclude that understanding basic physics is beyond your comprehension, and that you can't do anything better that parrot what you don't understand in the first place.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
you can't do anything better that parrot what you don't understand in the first place.


You didn't use the word "diffuse" until Mola did a few pages back. Now you call someone else a Parrot?

Time to change hats again from physicist and legal expert to metallurgist.
Explain this..

Quote:
The chemical composition of cast iron is listed in Table 1.
This material is normally used to automobiles. Figure 1
shows a schematic drawing of the unidirectional solidifica-
tion casting apparatus for fabricating a lotus-type cast iron

Quote:
Many sliding parts in the automobile, such as
gears and pistons are rubbed under oil lubrication. Under oil
lubrication, the slide material, the condition of material
surface and the lubrication are mentioned as factors which
influences the tribological behaviour. Many studies, such as
adaptation of low friction material, concavo-convex process-
ing to the surface
1,2)
and an increasing of the amount of
lubrication oil, have been made to improve and control the
tribological behaviour.
Porous metal contains the countless pores and huge surface
area which are not involved in the usual bulk metals.
Therefore, it is apparent that surface and lubrication
conditions of porous metals are very different from those of
the usual bulk metals

https://www.jim.or.jp/journal/e/pdf3/47/09/2259.pdf

http://www.google.com/patents/US4173500

 

[rdalek]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
If that's the best you've got, then we'll conclude that understanding basic physics is beyond your comprehension, and that you can't do anything better that parrot what you don't understand in the first place.


So you are back to claiming that anyone who doesn't believe your opinion is not intelligent? In other words, the best you have is to claim others are stupid?

How's that FTC complaint coming? You got it started yet? Your opinion here still doesn't change a thing does it?

 

[Trav]

Apparently some metals like iron used in engines are purposely cast with some amount of porosity.
I don't think anyone in this thread thinks oil or anything is soaking into steels or metals are acting like a sponge.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Frankly this and the Zmax thread have been real eye openers for many of us. Thanks to the folks who revealed themselves, it's valuable info for future interactions...

 

[Trav]

I think the confusion is in the terminology. If what they say in the paper is correct then the pores could be filled with anything including engine oil.
So Zmax, MMO or anything else should have no more effect than oil on that surface.

The use of the term soaks in metal is inaccurate and pure marketing IMO but it can fill pores as can engine oil.
Even the term porous iron conjurers up visions of a iron bath tub leaking water as your filling it which is also inaccurate.

After reading the paper i think i understand what they are saying with the iron used in engines and cyl liners but i am no metallurgist and might be misunderstanding the whole thing.

 

[Mystic]

Thank you Trav! This is all very interesting. It certainly looks like somewhat porous iron could be very useful as cylinder sleeves in an engine and for other purposes. It says in that one research paper that they were getting sizable fuel economy gains and also less wear.

And the information about graphite in iron oil was also interesting. I did find a limited amount of information about graphite in cast iron for skillets. So people have known something about the effects of graphite on cast iron for a while.

I wonder why our resident oil expert did not know about all of this? Metal can be made to be porous. From bronze filter inserts to cast iron skillets to iron in engines.

 

[Mystic]

Of course, like Trav said, that porosity would be limited. But there would be some amount of motor oil getting into the metal. Just as cooking oils and grease can get into the cast iron skillet.

And it would not require 'magic' abilities of ZMax or some other product to achieve these results. Motor oil would work just fine.

And we can understand why demarpaint said it was so hard to clean iron items that were going to be painted.

This is one of the reasons why I respect guys like Trav, demarpaint and Steve so much at this website. They find answers and don't just parrot what somebody else says. And they are willing to ask questions and try to find answers to the questions.