Michelin Pilot Super Sport

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
I think I am going to have to go to 18" diameter wheels just so I can run these tires, such has been the effect of all of the raving about them on here!

If, as I suspect, you are an 'enthusiast' these tires are dynamite. They will improve almost any car's performance envelope dramatically, and they are warranted for 30k miles!

Are they stupid or what?

 

[d00df00d]

So, here is an exhaustive list of reasons NOT to run this tire:

1. You actually want to keep your car's handling limits somewhat low (e.g. so you can play with limit handling at normal-person speeds).
2. Your car would be horribly undersprung if its tires had this much grip.
3. You absolutely cannot scrape together the cash for the upfront cost, regardless of the benefits.
4. The tire is not available in the size you need.
5. Winter.

If none of those applies to you, there's no reason to run anything else. It's that simple.


Examples, and some counterpoints:

I have a friend who falls into category 1 with his E39 M5 -- though he also has an E46 M3, and that car gets Pilot Super Sports. Another friend has a Scion FR-S and is on the fence here.

Another friend has a classic Porsche 930 Carrera S, completely stock except for some very minor updates. That's category 2.

I don't know anyone in category 3 (it's usually a matter of priorities rather than outright constraints), but in general I feel like it's better to save money on the car than to save money on the tire.

My brother is in category 4. He runs 15" rims on his Integra; he'd have to step up to 17s to run Pilot Super Sports, which would be silly.

For category 5, anyone who has the ability to store a second set of rims and tires should have a winter set. That's just a given, IMO.

 

[SilverC6]

I'm encouraged the Pilot Super Sports are delivering higher mileage for everyone.

My car is on 20's (265/35ZR20 front and 295/30ZR20 rear) and shows a UTQG rating of 300.

The only other option I would have is Pirelli P Zero with a lower UTQG and a higher price.

In my estimation, the Pilots cannot be improved upon.

 

[JHZR2]

Thanks; my 135i will get these in place of the runflats when the time is due. Alas it looks like I'll get 40k out of the uhp runflats, so time may be the determinant...

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Alas it looks like I'll get 40k out of the uhp runflats, so time may be the determinant...

40k until the wear bars, or 40k until they suck to drive on?

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
4. The tire is not available in the size you need.

That's my situation. These start at 17" sizes and I'd prefer a stock 16" size. There is the occasional extreme performance tire in my size, but only a few.

Which makes me wonder about how prevalent large wheels are these days. I hear a MINI can come with 18" wheels. Seems kind of ridiculous. I remember one auto reviewer saying that even 17" wheels didn't really help with the handling and meant that the tires were low profile and more prone to blowouts from hitting potholes. They'll result in higher unsprung weight. There might be a theoretical infinitesimal improvement in handling, but there are some serious drawbacks and it might even be more difficult to tune the suspension.

I thought that the original MINI had 12" wheels and still handled exceptionally well. And I keep on hearing of people who track/autocross their cars with 15"/16" wheels and consistently blow away those with larger wheels in the handling department.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Alas it looks like I'll get 40k out of the uhp runflats, so time may be the determinant...

40k until the wear bars, or 40k until they suck to drive on?


From my experience the improvement in ride quality alone would be worth the purchase of new PSS's. Those run flat tires ride very poorly...

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Thanks; my 135i will get these in place of the runflats when the time is due. Alas it looks like I'll get 40k out of the uhp runflats, so time may be the determinant...

Do some autocross on them, you can burn them up while having a great time, with no real risk to the car.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
4. The tire is not available in the size you need.

That's my situation. These start at 17" sizes and I'd prefer a stock 16" size. There is the occasional extreme performance tire in my size, but only a few.

Which makes me wonder about how prevalent large wheels are these days. I hear a MINI can come with 18" wheels. Seems kind of ridiculous. I remember one auto reviewer saying that even 17" wheels didn't really help with the handling and meant that the tires were low profile and more prone to blowouts from hitting potholes. They'll result in higher unsprung weight. There might be a theoretical infinitesimal improvement in handling, but there are some serious drawbacks and it might even be more difficult to tune the suspension.

I thought that the original MINI had 12" wheels and still handled exceptionally well. And I keep on hearing of people who track/autocross their cars with 15"/16" wheels and consistently blow away those with larger wheels in the handling department.


The generally given reason (or excuse, if that is applicable) for larger wheels from a performance standpoint is to be able to stuff much larger rotors and >4 piston calipers inside of them.

Yes, I would have to be SURE that the PSSes would deliver maybe even MORE grip than a set of 'semi-R' compound, 100 treadwear rated Toyo RA-1s or R888s on my current, somewhat light, 16" wheels, vs. spending $2500+ on a set of 18" wheels which would then allow me to run the PSSes (for another ~$1200 or so).

Even with buying those Toyo 'streetable race' tires 2-3 times as often, due to MUCH worse wear, I still would be spending less coin.

 

[d00df00d]

If I had to choose between Pilot Super Sports and smaller, lighter rims... I'd probably take the smaller, lighter rims. That "probably" becomes "definitely" if the difference were 2" or more.

My brother runs Bridgestone Potenza RE-11As on his Integra's 15" runs. Great tire -- not a substitute for the Pilot Super Sport, but certainly good enough that upsizing wouldn't be worth it.

 

[ledslinger]

"So, here is an exhaustive list of reasons NOT to run this tire:

1. You actually want to keep your car's handling limits somewhat low (e.g. so you can play with limit handling at normal-person speeds)."

I've experienced this situation on my Mustang going from 225/55-16 Goodyear Eagles, to 255/40-17 Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3. Not much getting her sideways on the Michelins unless I really want to kick up the speed. You've worded it perfectly.

 

[97tbird]

A Bit OT:
I feel a bit jealous about some being able to run dedicated summer tires like Michelin PSS, etc.
ALthough my ZHP handles so good on summer tires, I just can't justify paying for different tires in different seasons, and I want to be safe in rainy and light snow weather, too.

Guess my search for good UHP/HP All-seasons will continue.

Have Conti DWS right now, and 75% happy with them, but flatspotting when parked is making me wonder about something else for the future...
Very curious about General G Max 03

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: 97tbird
Guess my search for good UHP/HP All-seasons will continue.

When it comes to UHP all-seasons, Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3 is supposed to be the latest cat's meow...

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?...-Speed+Rated%29 (click on the Tests(Video) tab)

However, in general, these UHP all-season tires are still a compromise and their winter handling capabilities leave much to be desired.

I really wanted to get the A/S 3 last year, but they weren't out yet, and I just couldn't wait any longer, so I ended up with Bridgestone RE970 instead. Spring/Summer/Fall, they're just fine, and for winter I've got Altimax Arctics anyway.

Maybe in NC you can get away with all-seasons in the winter, but up here, not so much. I am really unhappy with how DWS handle winter weather on the wife's C300. She'll be getting dedicated winter tires this year.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: 97tbird
Guess my search for good UHP/HP All-seasons will continue.

When it comes to UHP all-seasons, Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3 is supposed to be the latest cat's meow...

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?...-Speed+Rated%29 (click on the Tests(Video) tab)

However, in general, these UHP all-season tires are still a compromise and their winter handling capabilities leave much to be desired.

I really wanted to get the A/S 3 last year, but they weren't out yet, and I just couldn't wait any longer, so I ended up with Bridgestone RE970 instead. Spring/Summer/Fall, they're just fine, and for winter I've got Altimax Arctics anyway.

Maybe in NC you can get away with all-seasons in the winter, but up here, not so much. I am really unhappy with how DWS handle winter weather on the wife's C300. She'll be getting dedicated winter tires this year.


I have DWS on my wife's Tiguan, but for winter I put on her Tig Blizzak's.
I grew up in Europe where by the law you have to have dedicated winter tires. There is no substitution for dedicated winter tire in any snow or temps below 40 degrees.
DWS are there just for the period in October and November when there are big temp changes, little snow, then spike in temp etc.
Since I lived in South Est, in NC, I would still run dedicated winter tire, maybe Michelin xice3.

 

[d00df00d]

Some friends of mine have run lots of top-end Michelins. They tell me the A/S 3 has comparable grip to the old PS2 in the wet and dry. They say it's terrible in the snow, but they tend to be extremely hard on anything but winter tires when it comes to snow traction...

The A/S 3 is what my buddy's M5 runs so that oversteer remains accessible at moderate (for him) speeds with stock power.

Additional benefits of the A/S 3 are a LONG treadwear warranty (60k miles!) and, according to my friends, low NVH.

 

[97tbird]

I guess I am lucky enough that the snow in NC is never THAT bad (but we do get ice storms), and I primarily drive the FWD beater Elantra in snow/ice weather with good A/S tires and that has been enough SO FAR to get to work, etc, even with a steep/hilly part before I get to main road. (I have General Altimax HP on it, which is a pretty good A/S in light snow/ice). But they're old now, and will probably be replaced soon.

The Bimmer will just have to do with a good A/S HP/UHP tire, and will consider Michelin A/S-3 for sure., along with GmMax, about which I've heard a lot of good things in BMW forums..

 

[krzyss]

Originally Posted By: 97tbird
A Bit OT:
I feel a bit jealous about some being able to run dedicated summer tires like Michelin PSS, etc.
ALthough my ZHP handles so good on summer tires, I just can't justify paying for different tires in different seasons, and I want to be safe in rainy and light snow weather, too.

Guess my search for good UHP/HP All-seasons will continue.

Have Conti DWS right now, and 75% happy with them, but flatspotting when parked is making me wonder about something else for the future...
Very curious about General G Max 03


Do you know that most summer tires are very good in the wet? Even better than all seasons which must use hydrophilic compouds for winter traction.

There are dry only summer tires but you do not need to buy them (Kumho XS is one of dry focused summer tires - C&D called them diabolical in the wet).

Krzys

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Additional benefits of the A/S 3 are a LONG treadwear warranty (60k miles!)

TR says 45k miles, but still decent for this category.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Yes, I would have to be SURE that the PSSes would deliver maybe even MORE grip than a set of 'semi-R' compound, 100 treadwear rated Toyo RA-1s or R888s on my current, somewhat light, 16" wheels, vs. spending $2500+ on a set of 18" wheels which would then allow me to run the PSSes (for another ~$1200 or so).

In the dry: not a chance.

In the wet: like you wouldn't believe.

But again, if you have to upsize, it's not worth it.

Is the Bridgestone Potenza RE-11A available for your size?

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: krzyss
Originally Posted By: 97tbird
A Bit OT:
I feel a bit jealous about some being able to run dedicated summer tires like Michelin PSS, etc.
ALthough my ZHP handles so good on summer tires, I just can't justify paying for different tires in different seasons, and I want to be safe in rainy and light snow weather, too.

Guess my search for good UHP/HP All-seasons will continue.

Have Conti DWS right now, and 75% happy with them, but flatspotting when parked is making me wonder about something else for the future...
Very curious about General G Max 03


Do you know that most summer tires are very good in the wet? Even better than all seasons which must use hydrophilic compouds for winter traction.

There are dry only summer tires but you do not need to buy them (Kumho XS is one of dry focused summer tires - C&D called them diabolical in the wet).

Krzys

Hydrophilic compounds help with wet traction. Most tires (even summer tires) these days contain more and more silica, which is supposed to help with all-temperature flexibility, reduction of rolling resistance, and to prevent chunking. A side benefit is that the silica is inherently hydrophilic.

There's static properties to water. Of course water results in hydroplaning at a macro and micro level, but wettability of the compound helps where the rubber contacts the pavement. I know it sounds odd, but you can see this by getting a wet piece of paper to stick to a wet surface, while a similar weight sheet of plastic won't.

Here's an interesting pieces from the Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Lab:

Quote:
http://www.jhuapl.edu/ott/technologies/technology/articles/P03636.asp

We plan to use the commonly used sio2 filler but with different morphology for improving the overall rubber stiffness—i.e., lowering the rolling resistance—and, because of the hydrophilicity of silica, the wet traction will improve at the same time. The Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Laboratory is well equipped to make these nano-sized silica structures (electro-spinning) and has a well-established sol-gel process for making them.


We've gone over this debate before in this forum.