Michelin Pilot Sport AS3+ or Continental DWS06 ?

[mightymousetech]

Originally Posted By: NissanMaxima
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
If you're going to insist on getting one set for year-round use, it's going to be tough because, all else equal, the tires that are better in snow are going to be worse elsewhere. You'll just have to decide how much you value snow traction vs. everything else.

It totally makes sense to want a tire that isn't completely useless in snow, just in case you get caught off-guard. A tire like that will usually have a tread compound that's really good for cold temps, so you can also run it for more of the year (vs. a summer tire or 3-season-focused AS tire). Those caught-off-guard scenarios basically never involve heavy snow, so light snow traction is all you need to worry about. The regular A/S 3 would have been okay for that purpose; the A/S 3+ is better (enhanced winter performance was the point of the "+"). The DWS 06 is maybe a shade better than that, though it must be said Tire Rack's test results between the A/S 3+ and the DWS 08 were mixed.

...But yeah, definitely plan to get the winter set next winter.


Thanks dOODfOOd. I think two tires that would fit this requirement would be either the Michelin Premier and the Cont. TrueContact. Several folks I talked to at tirerack liked both and emphasized winter traction would be better than the Michelin Pilot Sport AS 3+ according to their tests. Both of these are not UHP tires so also have longer tread life. In fact the Continentals claim 80k miles. We are also very conservative drivers so probably have no need for UHP tires. Also, I know in general tires with long tread life aren't supposed to be soft enough for winter as eddvy has pointed out but perhaps this isn't always true for every tire made out there. They are also both V rated so one step down from the original W tires that came with the tire so that leads me to believe they are well constructed as well. After careful deliberation, I believe I have settled on the Continental True Contact. I know if I run them year round they won't be as good in any season compared to dedicated 3 season plus winter dedicated tires but, for the occasional snowstorm in metro Denver with short commutes (we don't ever really go to the mountains like Eddvw does here) combined with the the fact they are going on a Corolla and our conservative driving style, I think they might be just fine. Alternatively, I guess I can always try them during next winter season and if they don't work well, I can get that dedicated winter set and still have a set of all seasons that according to tirerack do quite well in light snow conditions. I was a bit disappointed the continentals aren't made in USA like the Michelin Premier as I like to support our local economy and wonder about quality control but learned that only 40% or so of tires are made in USA and the rest world-wide. The continentals are made in Mexico like Pirelli and Firestone so I guess they are in good company!

I also spotted this thread about them here where a lot of people said they liked the all season performance with several folks living in the snow-belt:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/4352366/


The Nokian WR-G3 is probably your best bet. They are a quality tire.

https://www.nokiantires.com/winter-tires/nokian-wrg3/

I also currently have a set of the Mich A/S3+, they honestly don't look like they would be much better than the A/S3.

Someone also mentioned the Hankook Optimo 4S, unfortunately, that tire is made exclusively for Canadian Tire. So, only available at CTC in Canada.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: mightymousetech
The Nokian WR-G3 is probably your best bet. They are a quality tire.

https://www.nokiantires.com/winter-tires/nokian-wrg3/

Not a bad call. He already bought tires, though.


Originally Posted By: mightymousetech
I also currently have a set of the Mich A/S3+, they honestly don't look like they would be much better than the A/S3.

The difference is in the compound.

 

[NissanMaxima]

Originally Posted By: mightymousetech

The Nokian WR-G3 is probably your best bet. They are a quality tire.

https://www.nokiantires.com/winter-tires/nokian-wrg3/

I also currently have a set of the Mich A/S3+, they honestly don't look like they would be much better than the A/S3.

Someone also mentioned the Hankook Optimo 4S, unfortunately, that tire is made exclusively for Canadian Tire. So, only available at CTC in Canada.


Thanks - they didn't have the Continental True Contact in so I could probably still change the order. I didn't see the Nokian's on tire rack to look at the reviews/ratings. Is this a four season tire with the snowflake symbol which I understand is better than a standard all season?

Also, I was reviewing tire rack testing on the Conti True Contact vs. the Michelin Pilot Sport AS 3+ I was originally considering. It seems the Pilot Sport AS 3+ actually has a bit better winter performance better than the Conti True Contact which surprised me since I thought it was tuned for 3 season driving. The Pilot Sport AS 3+ might have been an actual better pick in the first place.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: NissanMaxima
I didn't see the Nokian's on tire rack to look at the reviews/ratings.

TR does not carry Nokian tires. But many local Discount Tire stores do.

Quote:
Is this a four season tire with the snowflake symbol which I understand is better than a standard all season?

Correct. If you insist on only having one set of tires and experience snow/winter driving conditions, then this is the tire to get.

 

[NissanMaxima]

Didn't immediately spot your link and now see it is in fact an all weather. Looks interesting. I wish tire rack offered it so I could compare winter snow and ice braking distance with the Conti True Contact or Mich. Pilot Sport AS 3+ as well as dry/wet performance. Found a bunch of tire rack actual test data on their site last night which displays braking distance, etc. etc. Do you think the Nokian's would have comparable 3 season wet/dry performance to the Conti True Contact or Mich. Pilot Sport AS 3+.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: NissanMaxima
Do you think the Nokian's would have comparable 3 season wet/dry performance to the Conti True Contact or Mich. Pilot Sport AS 3+.

I doubt it. There is always a trade off. With the Nokian, you gain more winter capabilities at the expense of losing some good weather capabilities. Still, unless you drive in a very spirited manner, you probably won't notice it much.

Basically, that particular Nokian tire is more geared toward winter driving while a tire like PS AS3+ is more geared toward the other 3-season driving.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: NissanMaxima
Do you think the Nokian's would have comparable 3 season wet/dry performance to the Conti True Contact or Mich. Pilot Sport AS 3+.

Vs. the Conti, unlikely.

Vs. the A/S 3+, not a chance.

 

[mightymousetech]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: NissanMaxima
Do you think the Nokian's would have comparable 3 season wet/dry performance to the Conti True Contact or Mich. Pilot Sport AS 3+.

I doubt it. There is always a trade off. With the Nokian, you gain more winter capabilities at the expense of losing some good weather capabilities. Still, unless you drive in a very spirited manner, you probably won't notice it much.

Basically, that particular Nokian tire is more geared toward winter driving while a tire like PS AS3+ is more geared toward the other 3-season driving.


Winter approved, so it will be better in the wet and cold than the others.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: NissanMaxima
Also, I was reviewing tire rack testing on the Conti True Contact vs. the Michelin Pilot Sport AS 3+ I was originally considering. It seems the Pilot Sport AS 3+ actually has a bit better winter performance better than the Conti True Contact which surprised me since I thought it was tuned for 3 season driving.

On test results: Those tires are in two VERY different classes, so the results can't really be compared.

On the "3-season" thing: There's a difference in perspective that's worth noting. To most people, the A/S 3+ would be okay in winter. Not great, but okay. Certainly better in winter than many other "all-season" tires, especially the normal A/S 3. But that's from the perspective of your average person, who has never used good winter tires in winter. Like, the kind of person who blames the car when they spin out or get stuck. For anyone who understands what winter tires bring to the table, most all-season tires are hard to take seriously in winter conditions. From that perspective, yes, the A/S 3+ and all other tires in that league are mainly 3-season tires. They just happen to be okay in cold temps with a light dusting of snow on the ground.


Originally Posted By: NissanMaxima
The Pilot Sport AS 3+ might have been an actual better pick in the first place.

If you're definitely running this tire year-round, I'm not so sure. TrueContact vs. A/S 3+ depends on what you value.

If you were going to get a winter set next winter... yeah, you definitely should have gone with the A/S 3+.

 

[NissanMaxima]

Thanks folks. So tire rack tested the Mich Pilot Sport AS3+ alongside the Conti. DWS 06. In another test they did the Conti. True Contacts and in another test the Mich Premier. I've been looking at all these again as the tire place said I can change the order. I know they are in different type categories but I carefully reviewed the actual test data and the tires were all tested with the identical make/model/year car and they measured everything the same (such as dry braking time from 50 mph to 0 mph, snow stopping feet 25mph to 0, etc.) I made a quick chart of what they tested. Doesn't that now mean I can compare performance to what matters to me? For instance, the Conti True Contact's snow braking time was 78 ft. vs. 69-70 ft. for the Mich. Pilot Sport AS3+ and Conti DWS06. I guess this surprised me since I know the Conti DWS06 in particular is touted for its strengths in snow for an AS tire yet the Pilot Sport AS3+ bested it. Snow acceleration and lap snow specs were also better for the Pilot Sport AS3+ and Conti DWS06 compared to others in including True Contact. This is why I wish TireRack had also tested other suggestions made here such as the Nokian WG3 or Toyo Celsius so I could directly compare the test numbers.

For metro Denver, there are just a few days during the winter when there is significant snow. I'm just not sure it worth the expense and time swapping out tire sets etc. Maybe the best way to pose this question is "if you to had to make a choice for an AS or all-weather tire, what would you pick". Again, I'm not necessarily dismissing getting the winter set as I'd like to see what new tires will do for me first next winter, but even it I do get the winter set, I think it makes sense to get something that can also handle that surprise early storm or suprise late storm when the snow tire sets are off the car.

Thanks for sticking with me with all these questions folks.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: mightymousetech
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: NissanMaxima
Do you think the Nokian's would have comparable 3 season wet/dry performance to the Conti True Contact or Mich. Pilot Sport AS 3+.

I doubt it. There is always a trade off. With the Nokian, you gain more winter capabilities at the expense of losing some good weather capabilities. Still, unless you drive in a very spirited manner, you probably won't notice it much.

Basically, that particular Nokian tire is more geared toward winter driving while a tire like PS AS3+ is more geared toward the other 3-season driving.


Winter approved, so it will be better in the wet and cold than the others.

Wet when it is cold or? Winter tires have tendency due to compound to underperform in wet handling compare to AS and especially summer only tire. They will offer better wet grip at freezing point, but wet and let's say 55 degrees or 10c? Summer tire is da king.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: NissanMaxima
Thanks folks. So tire rack tested the Mich Pilot Sport AS3+ alongside the Conti. DWS 06. In another test they did the Conti. True Contacts and in another test the Mich Premier. I've been looking at all these again as the tire place said I can change the order. I know they are in different type categories but I carefully reviewed the actual test data and the tires were all tested with the identical make/model/year car and they measured everything the same (such as dry braking time from 50 mph to 0 mph, snow stopping feet 25mph to 0, etc.) I made a quick chart of what they tested. Doesn't that now mean I can compare performance to what matters to me? For instance, the Conti True Contact's snow braking time was 78 ft. vs. 69-70 ft. for the Mich. Pilot Sport AS3+ and Conti DWS06. I guess this surprised me since I know the Conti DWS06 in particular is touted for its strengths in snow for an AS tire yet the Pilot Sport AS3+ bested it. Snow acceleration and lap snow specs were also better for the Pilot Sport AS3+ and Conti DWS06 compared to others in including True Contact. This is why I wish TireRack had also tested other suggestions made here such as the Nokian WG3 or Toyo Celsius so I could directly compare the test numbers.

For metro Denver, there are just a few days during the winter when there is significant snow. I'm just not sure it worth the expense and time swapping out tire sets etc. Maybe the best way to pose this question is "if you to had to make a choice for an AS or all-weather tire, what would you pick". Again, I'm not necessarily dismissing getting the winter set as I'd like to see what new tires will do for me first next winter, but even it I do get the winter set, I think it makes sense to get something that can also handle that surprise early storm or suprise late storm when the snow tire sets are off the car.

Thanks for sticking with me with all these questions folks.

That is Colorado. You can have 2 ft of snow at the end of April or 70 degrees in January.
Like someone said, if you want serious winter performance, forget as or all weather tire. ONLY winter tire can offer that.
But, you are right, now for example when we are in 70's and 80's you want to move to AS tire that can offer bit traction in case of snow (might be coming this Friday). Why Michelin AS 3+ is better then DWS? Compound. DWS is benchmark in that category, and it is not like Michelin does not know how to make good compound. Both tires are going to be good. Michelin is performance king, Continental is winter tire king in Europe. So it is meshing up those technologies to make good AS tire. And apparently Michelin managed to tune it bit better according to tests, but how does that work in reality is question.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: NissanMaxima
Maybe the best way to pose this question is "if you to had to make a choice for an AS or all-weather tire, what would you pick".

For me, that would be Nokian WRG3.

In casual street driving, any tire can handle good weather conditions. It's the winter conditions where it gets tricky, and that is where the Nokian will handle it better than the other tires you're considering.

I've owned several UHP a/s tires over the years. Their winter capabilities are marginal at best, IMO.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: NissanMaxima
Thanks folks. So tire rack tested the Mich Pilot Sport AS3+ alongside the Conti. DWS 06. In another test they did the Conti. True Contacts and in another test the Mich Premier. I've been looking at all these again as the tire place said I can change the order. I know they are in different type categories but I carefully reviewed the actual test data and the tires were all tested with the identical make/model/year car and they measured everything the same (such as dry braking time from 50 mph to 0 mph, snow stopping feet 25mph to 0, etc.) I made a quick chart of what they tested. Doesn't that now mean I can compare performance to what matters to me? For instance, the Conti True Contact's snow braking time was 78 ft. vs. 69-70 ft. for the Mich. Pilot Sport AS3+ and Conti DWS06. I guess this surprised me since I know the Conti DWS06 in particular is touted for its strengths in snow for an AS tire yet the Pilot Sport AS3+ bested it. Snow acceleration and lap snow specs were also better for the Pilot Sport AS3+ and Conti DWS06 compared to others in including True Contact. This is why I wish TireRack had also tested other suggestions made here such as the Nokian WG3 or Toyo Celsius so I could directly compare the test numbers.

First, let me say you're doing a MUCH better job at this than 90% of the population.

For reasons I don't entirely understand, test numbers are notoriously hard to compare across tests. That's one reason why car mags so often re-test their cars whenever they want to do a new comparison, rather than simply referring to old test numbers. AFAIK that's especially true of braking numbers. I have no idea why, but weird things happen when you compare cars tested on two different days, even by the same people at the same place -- like sedans seeming to out-brake supercars and stuff.

So, yeah. Nothing wrong with your reasoning. It just doesn't work in practice somehow.


Originally Posted By: NissanMaxima
For metro Denver, there are just a few days during the winter when there is significant snow. I'm just not sure it worth the expense and time swapping out tire sets etc. Maybe the best way to pose this question is "if you to had to make a choice for an AS or all-weather tire, what would you pick". Again, I'm not necessarily dismissing getting the winter set as I'd like to see what new tires will do for me first next winter, but even it I do get the winter set, I think it makes sense to get something that can also handle that surprise early storm or suprise late storm when the snow tire sets are off the car.

The better a tire can handle those days, the worse it is the rest of the year. It's not just about snow; it's about cold temps, too. A tread compound that works better in cold temps is usually worse in warm temps, and vice versa. So, if you opt for a tire that's better in winter conditions, you're paying for it with worse capability/safety margin for the rest of the year. If you go the opposite route, you have the opposite problem: it's good 95% of the time, but worse when it's most challenged.

As for "the expense", the only real additional expense is the one-time purchase of the second set of wheels. Because you're only running one set of tires at a time, you don't really have to buy replacements more frequently.

On surprise storms: How often does it dump more than a light dusting of snow with no warning whatsoever?

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: NissanMaxima
Thanks folks. So tire rack tested the Mich Pilot Sport AS3+ alongside the Conti. DWS 06. In another test they did the Conti. True Contacts and in another test the Mich Premier. I've been looking at all these again as the tire place said I can change the order. I know they are in different type categories but I carefully reviewed the actual test data and the tires were all tested with the identical make/model/year car and they measured everything the same (such as dry braking time from 50 mph to 0 mph, snow stopping feet 25mph to 0, etc.) I made a quick chart of what they tested. Doesn't that now mean I can compare performance to what matters to me? For instance, the Conti True Contact's snow braking time was 78 ft. vs. 69-70 ft. for the Mich. Pilot Sport AS3+ and Conti DWS06. I guess this surprised me since I know the Conti DWS06 in particular is touted for its strengths in snow for an AS tire yet the Pilot Sport AS3+ bested it. Snow acceleration and lap snow specs were also better for the Pilot Sport AS3+ and Conti DWS06 compared to others in including True Contact. This is why I wish TireRack had also tested other suggestions made here such as the Nokian WG3 or Toyo Celsius so I could directly compare the test numbers.

First, let me say you're doing a MUCH better job at this than 90% of the population.

For reasons I don't entirely understand, test numbers are notoriously hard to compare across tests. That's one reason why car mags so often re-test their cars whenever they want to do a new comparison, rather than simply referring to old test numbers. AFAIK that's especially true of braking numbers. I have no idea why, but weird things happen when you compare cars tested on two different days, even by the same people at the same place -- like sedans seeming to out-brake supercars and stuff.

So, yeah. Nothing wrong with your reasoning. It just doesn't work in practice somehow.


Originally Posted By: NissanMaxima
For metro Denver, there are just a few days during the winter when there is significant snow. I'm just not sure it worth the expense and time swapping out tire sets etc. Maybe the best way to pose this question is "if you to had to make a choice for an AS or all-weather tire, what would you pick". Again, I'm not necessarily dismissing getting the winter set as I'd like to see what new tires will do for me first next winter, but even it I do get the winter set, I think it makes sense to get something that can also handle that surprise early storm or suprise late storm when the snow tire sets are off the car.

The better a tire can handle those days, the worse it is the rest of the year. It's not just about snow; it's about cold temps, too. A tread compound that works better in cold temps is usually worse in warm temps, and vice versa. So, if you opt for a tire that's better in winter conditions, you're paying for it with worse capability/safety margin for the rest of the year. If you go the opposite route, you have the opposite problem: it's good 95% of the time, but worse when it's most challenged.

As for "the expense", the only real additional expense is the one-time purchase of the second set of wheels. Because you're only running one set of tires at a time, you don't really have to buy replacements more frequently.

On surprise storms: How often does it dump more than a light dusting of snow with no warning whatsoever?

How often it dumps? Denver is at 5800ft, plenty sun, 70 degrees weather in January is common, and then you wake up next morning with 2ft of snow.
Then super nice weather for next month, then some dusting, then they say storm will hit only WY, but it turns south, and again you are in the pickle.
Officially, at 5800ft you are in the mountains. Front range has benefit of upslope winds that keep storm in mountains, but every now and then they go thru. Also, if it is El Nino year, you will get "train" from New Mexico with one-two-three punch that can wreck havoc on CO.
A lot of people in CO think they can get by using AS tires. Except they are number one reason for accidents. But I guess for them driving 5mph on interstate and creating 20 mile back up is really not an issue=road rage.
Month ago we got blizzard here with 10ft visibility and around foot of snow. I hit slopes at 6am to catch some fresh powder, using only local roads because I know interstates will be closed, because, you guess, people with AS tires. So I leave house and saw around 30 abandon cars, left blocking roads, with no hazard lights, no signals nothing on them. Of course all got stuck in snow where even worse winter tire would not have a problem.
One of the reasons why I support death penalty and do not have any compassion for them.

 

[d00df00d]

Yikes. Sounds like a tire that's just passable in snow wouldn't cut it, then.

That never happens up here. Big snow dumps always come with at least some warning, so you can make a case for just-get-me-home levels of snow traction. But man, if I thought a foot of snow could land any day, and I didn't have winter tires, I'd dump bricks.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Yikes. Sounds like a tire that's just passable in snow wouldn't cut it, then.

That never happens up here. Big snow dumps always come with at least some warning, so you can make a case for just-get-me-home levels of snow traction. But man, if I thought a foot of snow could land any day, and I didn't have winter tires, I'd dump bricks.

Colorado is tricky. More then 300 sunny days, rest is bit of rain, bit of snow, and 10 snow days that can really ruin your life.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Yikes. Sounds like a tire that's just passable in snow wouldn't cut it, then.

That never happens up here. Big snow dumps always come with at least some warning, so you can make a case for just-get-me-home levels of snow traction. But man, if I thought a foot of snow could land any day, and I didn't have winter tires, I'd dump bricks.

A lot of people think they can cut it, and once they figure out they cannot their answer is: stay at home. Except, life does not work that way.

 

[mightymousetech]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Yikes. Sounds like a tire that's just passable in snow wouldn't cut it, then.

That never happens up here. Big snow dumps always come with at least some warning, so you can make a case for just-get-me-home levels of snow traction. But man, if I thought a foot of snow could land any day, and I didn't have winter tires, I'd dump bricks.


And these are the idiots that are doing 10 in the left lane on the highway, blocking everyone who is smart enough to run winters from actually getting where they want to go in a reasonable time.

 

[Tundragod]

[/quote]And these are the idiots that are doing 10 in the left lane on the highway, blocking everyone who is smart enough to run winters from actually getting where they want to go in a reasonable time.[/quote]

I encountered some of those idiots in Texas in a rainy day. They had their hazard lights on, stayed on the left lane, going slow. When I passed them on the right lane, they gave me a finger. If you have an emergency lights on, move over to the right or shoulder. Gezzzzzzzz.