Michelin Pilot Sport AS3+ or Continental DWS06 ?

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Injured_Again
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Injured_Again
I agree with you that handling is more than just cornering performance, but I **strongly disagree** that wide tires hinder handling as you have defined it. I don't know who you are but unless you were someone like Lewis Hamilton in disguise, I would assume that Randy Pobst and the editors of Motor Trend magazine probably have more seat time than you do, and probably have access to more different vehicles as well. If you take a look at their "Best Driver's Cars" from the last three years, you will see that they are the Chevy Camaro Z28 in 2014, the AMG GTS in 2015, and the McLaren 570S in 2016. Of those three, only the McLaren wears tires that would be not be considered "steamrollers", but the second place vehicle that year was the Mustang GT350R, which had the widest front tires of every vehicle there.

http://www.motortrend.com/news/2014-motor-trends-best-drivers-car/

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/mercedes-benz/amg-gt/2016/2015-motor-trend-best-drivers-car/

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/mclaren/570/2016/2016-motor-trend-best-drivers-car/


I'm definitely not a professional in the relevant sense. Just an amateur with interests in vehicle dynamics and terminological precision.

Obvious response here: "Best driver's car" is not "best handling car."

Here's an example of "best handling car": http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/the-best-handling-car-in-america-for-less-than-100k-feature

1. Boxster Spyder
2. Elise SC
3. RX-8 R3
4. M3
5. GT-R
6. Z06
7. GTI


Here's another: http://www.m3forum.com/articles/Car_and_Driver_Sept_1997.pdf

1. M3
2. F355
3. NSX-T
4. Supra Turbo
5. Viper GTS
6. Corvette
7. 911 Carrera S
8. Boxster

In both cases, there's no correlation between tire width and finishing order. The lists are topped by cars with unremarkable tire sizes. The cars with the biggest tires end up mid-pack at best.

Then there's this -- Chris Harris takes a C63 AMG, swaps out all four wheels for space saver spares, and waxes poetic about the excellence of its chassis and how modern cars feel unexciting because they have too much grip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPh90yNX-mY

Yes, the GT350R and Z/28 have the biggest possible tires. I don't think there's any way to argue that either of those cars is more handling-focused than, say, a Cayman GT4 or 911 GT3, neither of which runs the biggest possible tires (at least in front).

The extra-focused versions of the Ferrari 360, 430, and 458 all run relatively narrow fronts -- 225 for the Challenge Stradale, 235 for the Scuderia, and 245 for the Speciale. Surely you're not proposing Ford and Chevy care more about how their hot pony cars handle than Ferrari cares about how their trackday specials handle.

With wider tires, a car gains lateral grip, which has obvious benefits. It'll have higher lateral G limits, better tire heat management (given good alignment specs), and more positive steering response (as long as the fronts are wide enough relative to the rears). In exchange, the car will have less forgiving limit behavior, less useful steering feedback, more useless NVH, more of a tendency to tramline, and worse behavior on a wet road. And then there's the tradeoff between lateral and longitudinal grip that comes with choosing a wider vs. longer contact patch. There's always a balance to be struck.


The tests you quoted are **SIX AND SEVEN YEARS OLD**. None of those cars exist today in the models that were tested back then, except for the GT-R. Technology has moved on, and has allowed great handling and driving vehicles while using "steamroller" tires.

The Motor Trend tests I quoted are the three most recent of their continuing annual tests. You'll notice that the fastest cars do not win. Instead, it is the vehicle that provides the combination of best handling and best driving enjoyment/involvement, to a professional race car driver and to editors of a major motorsports magazine. I think that holds much greater relevance to what is possible today with modern technology, rather than tests that are now six and seven years old.

Steamrolling tires=issues in power transfer to surface or cheaper way to avoid more expensive suspension solutions.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Injured_Again
The tests you quoted are **SIX AND SEVEN YEARS OLD**. None of those cars exist today in the models that were tested back then, except for the GT-R. Technology has moved on, and has allowed great handling and driving vehicles while using "steamroller" tires.

The Motor Trend tests I quoted are the three most recent of their continuing annual tests. You'll notice that the fastest cars do not win. Instead, it is the vehicle that provides the combination of best handling and best driving enjoyment/involvement, to a professional race car driver and to editors of a major motorsports magazine. I think that holds much greater relevance to what is possible today with modern technology, rather than tests that are now six and seven years old.

If these are your objections, you either haven't fully read or haven't fully understood what I've posted. Either way, I don't know how to respond in a way that moves the discussion forward. Sorry.

 

[NissanMaxima]

Originally Posted By: danthaman1980
OP, did you already decide on a tire? I put a set of X-Ice Xi3s on my Mazda in November, and I've been very, very happy with them so far.


Hi: Thanks for the input. The X-Ice X3 are tempting because from tirerack review folks say they do last a bit longer. I want to make a decision between the blizzaks and the XIceX3's this week. Michelin emphasizes "ice" in their name, have they performed well for you in both moderate snow and ice?

----------------

I also came across this thread about Continental's input on wider vs. narrow and winter tires. From what I understand from that thread, folks thought wider is better for compacted snow, but for fresh snow, narrower is better for penetrating down to the road surface. However, what about the Continental comment about better winter braking with wider tires? Is that limited to compacted snow again? Also, we didn't talk much about ice. When pressure is applied to ice, the surface turns to water (as in ice skating), but is wider better than narrower for ice?

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3037287/1

from the thread above.....http://www.continental-tires.com/www/tires_de_en/themes/car-tires/winter-tires/channel_winter_wide_tires/wide_tires.html

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: NissanMaxima
Originally Posted By: danthaman1980
OP, did you already decide on a tire? I put a set of X-Ice Xi3s on my Mazda in November, and I've been very, very happy with them so far.


Hi: Thanks for the input. The X-Ice X3 are tempting because from tirerack review folks say they do last a bit longer. I want to make a decision between the blizzaks and the XIceX3's this week. Michelin emphasizes "ice" in their name, have they performed well for you in both moderate snow and ice?

----------------

I also came across this thread about Continental's input on wider vs. narrow and winter tires. From what I understand from that thread, folks thought wider is better for compacted snow, but for fresh snow, narrower is better for penetrating down to the road surface. However, what about the Continental comment about better winter braking with wider tires? Is that limited to compacted snow again? Also, we didn't talk much about ice. When pressure is applied to ice, the surface turns to water (as in ice skating), but is wider better than narrower for ice?

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3037287/1

from the thread above.....http://www.continental-tires.com/www/tires_de_en/themes/car-tires/winter-tires/channel_winter_wide_tires/wide_tires.html

You will not loose a lot by going 195/65 R15. This is the U.S. not German autobahns so you have to worry how it will brake from 120mph to 0.
There are more differences between Michelin tires and Bridgestone tires.
Michelin is generally much more sophisticated, if not most sophisticated tire manufacturer in the world. They use a lot of kevlar and other exotic materials. They will be easier to balance, they will keep initial performance longer, and they have winter compound all the way from the beginning of the tread to the end. They are very light tires.
Bridgestone, while in the U.S. very popular with tis winter tires, when you compare it to European winter tires (Europe is by far the largest winter tire market in the world, and with that very competitive), Bridgestone never gained traction in the market. Biggest problem is that their tires, while initially performing very good, have winter compound only half way thru, until 6/32. After that, they turn into all season tire. Now, winter tire dramatically looses performance after 6/32 anyway, but still, if you hit 6/32 in let's say March, you want to finish that season with winter compound. Also, Bridgestone is much heavier tire then Michelin. Generally Bridgestone tires are heavy.
I personally go with them because I need to change tire every two seasons since I need deep tread for mountains. But if you are driving mostly in Denver area, my choice would be 195/65 R15 Michelin X-Ice. Bridgestone WS80 will perform better in deep snow and slush first 20K, after that, not so much. Michelin on other hand while bit behind in deep snow and slush, will keep same performance more or less until you hit 4/32, and even then, in ice it will do good.
Thing is, with two sets of tires, having Michelin as winter set, you might do easily 5-6 winters with that tire. 6th winter I would change it regardless of tread depth.

 

[NissanMaxima]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
You will not loose a lot by going 195/65 R15. This is the U.S. not German autobahns so you have to worry how it will brake from 120mph to 0.


Thanks edyvw. My impression was Continental was claiming shorter braking distances in the snow. Maybe I'm wrong. Thanks for the info on Michelin vs. Bridgestone. I think I'm nearly sold on the Michelin for around town driving and occasional mountain trip.

I had high hopes for this video I found yesterday obviously filmed in Europe, but they don't substantiate their claims of better wet and snow braking with wider.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WiQ2Q_jbFY

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: NissanMaxima
Originally Posted By: edyvw
You will not loose a lot by going 195/65 R15. This is the U.S. not German autobahns so you have to worry how it will brake from 120mph to 0.


Thanks edyvw. My impression was Continental was claiming shorter braking distances in the snow. Maybe I'm wrong. Thanks for the info on Michelin vs. Bridgestone. I think I'm nearly sold on the Michelin for around town driving and occasional mountain trip.

I had high hopes for this video I found yesterday obviously filmed in Europe, but they don't substantiate their claims of better wet and snow braking with wider.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WiQ2Q_jbFY

Yes, you will have better braking with wider tires in packed snow. However, what if you have to brake in slush? What about wet roads? When it snows in Denver, they clean good, and then you are dealing not with packed snow, but slush, water, ice. Wider tire will float faster. All options have compromises, but since car is invented, one thing is widely accepted: narrow tire in winter is way to go. And your Corolla is not particularly heavy car, so wider tire is not the way to go.
Do not forget, tire makers make more money by selling more expensive tires.

 

[d00df00d]

Great points, edyvw.

To return to the crude-but-passable rule of thumb:

- Wide is good for clean, solid surfaces (e.g. dry roads, sheet ice, thoroughly packed snow)
- Narrow is good when there's something on the surface that your tire has to punch through (e.g. rain, slush, not-entirely-packed snow)

 

[NissanMaxima]

Thanks; but are the narrower choices still good for ice, or is it impossible to achieve both good "non-packed snow" and ice performance?

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: NissanMaxima
Thanks; but are the narrower choices still good for ice, or is it impossible to achieve both good "non-packed snow" and ice performance?

We are talking here about 10mm difference.
It is good, because you get more longitudinal grip. Only reason why wider is better is possibility that you might catch some pavement or snow.
However, there is possibility that you will catch ice while you are on snow.
You are overthinking this too much. Make a decision, buy tires and go from there. You are greatly improving winter capabilities, whether you go with 205 or 195. But again, Corolla is small car, and 195 IMO is just right size.
205? BMW 5 series E39 had 205/55 tires.

 

[d00df00d]

I still think the 185 size is the best call, just because it's the closest to the stock OD.

But yeah, I wouldn't worry about ice traction. If you hit sheet ice, you'll likely be so screwed that a little extra tread width wouldn't save you. You're far more likely to encounter the kinds of scenarios in which you'd benefit from a narrower tire.

 

[NissanMaxima]

Hi again all:

spk2000 got me thinking about something in a post I made here about alignment with new set of tires where he said

"Michelin Pilots don't wear well anyways. they have a short life. not sure why you would put these on a corolla though but to each their own. Fuel economy and ride will suffer as will tire life."

I looked up the tread wear rating on tire rack and he was right. It is only 500.

Also there are other considerations. Because it got so late in the season, I did not end up getting the dedicated Michelin X Ice3 we all discussed on the separate set of minus size wheels. I saw no sense in buying them just to have them sit and degrade in my garage for the next 3 seasons so I delayed the purchase.

I'm still a bit on the fence here about a dedicated set of winter tires for Denver city driving and just got off the phone with tire rack. For an all season with the best possible snow performance without going dedicated snow tires, they like in this order from first to last pick with a strong preference for either continental. They said Premier is a decent choice, but Pilot Sport AS3+ would definitely be inferior to all the others:

Cont. True Contact
Cont. DWS 06
Michelin Premier
Michelin Pilot Sport as 3+ (the ones I was going to buy)

Becuase they are different categories, the board has also informed me I can't rely on tire rack snow ratings either so I'm left to consider tire rack advice and those with experience here.

So my question for the board is which of these would be best for my Corolla in Denver if in fact I don't get the dedicated winter set. But I should add that even it I get the dedicated winter set, I would still like to have the AS tire that has best possible snow performance in the likely event I experience snow before putting on the winter set, or after removing the 3 season set. (Hope that makes sense!) Also, I know I expressed concern about deviating from the OEM W rating, but after talking with Michelin, Tire Rack and reading these posts again, I have no problem with a lower speed rating and in fact all these choices come in V or W.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Just one general word of advice: if you want long treadlife, stay away from any tire in UHP category, such as A/S 3+ or DWS06. These will have shorter treadlife, regardless what the treadlife index may indicate.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: NissanMaxima
"Michelin Pilots don't wear well anyways. they have a short life. not sure why you would put these on a corolla though but to each their own. Fuel economy and ride will suffer as will tire life."

I looked up the tread wear rating on tire rack and he was right. It is only 500.

Treadwear ratings are not sufficiently standardized across brands, so looking at one in isolation doesn't tell you much.

A better guide is the treadwear warranty, which is 6 years or 45,000 miles for the A/S 3+.


Originally Posted By: NissanMaxima
So my question for the board is which of these would be best for my Corolla in Denver if in fact I don't get the dedicated winter set. But I should add that even it I get the dedicated winter set, I would still like to have the AS tire that has best possible snow performance in the likely event I experience snow before putting on the winter set, or after removing the 3 season set. (Hope that makes sense!)

Why would you not get the dedicated winter set next winter? It doesn't magically become less necessary if you have to wait a few months.

If you're going to insist on getting one set for year-round use, it's going to be tough because, all else equal, the tires that are better in snow are going to be worse elsewhere. You'll just have to decide how much you value snow traction vs. everything else.

It totally makes sense to want a tire that isn't completely useless in snow, just in case you get caught off-guard. A tire like that will usually have a tread compound that's really good for cold temps, so you can also run it for more of the year (vs. a summer tire or 3-season-focused AS tire). Those caught-off-guard scenarios basically never involve heavy snow, so light snow traction is all you need to worry about. The regular A/S 3 would have been okay for that purpose; the A/S 3+ is better (enhanced winter performance was the point of the "+"). The DWS 06 is maybe a shade better than that, though it must be said Tire Rack's test results between the A/S 3+ and the DWS 08 were mixed.

...But yeah, definitely plan to get the winter set next winter.


Originally Posted By: NissanMaxima
Also, I know I expressed concern about deviating from the OEM W rating, but after talking with Michelin, Tire Rack and reading these posts again, I have no problem with a lower speed rating and in fact all these choices come in V or W.

If you have a choice, you should still go for the higher speed rating if possible.

 

[mightymousetech]

The A/S3 are horrific in snow!

Tried a set as my "intermediate" tires. Used them once in 1" of snow, could not believe how bad they were. Went back to work and put my winter Hakkas on. 1000x better!

Now for intermediates I run Hakka WR-G3, which is one of the only REAL all-season tires, as it carries the three peak winter tire approval.

And the skinnier the tire, with the tallest sidewall, the better for winter. I use 185's on my winter Civic Si, that I also use for ice racing.

There is a reason why pro rally cars use tires as skinny as 135 on ice.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: mightymousetech
The A/S3 are horrific in snow!

Tried a set as my "intermediate" tires. Used them once in 1" of snow, could not believe how bad they were. Went back to work and put my winter Hakkas on. 1000x better!

Yeah, the A/S 3 isn't very good in snow. But it'll get you home with a light dusting on the road.

Either way, we're talking about the A/S 3+, which is significantly improved in winter conditions.

And yeah, kind of a no-brainer that winter tires are better.


Originally Posted By: mightymousetech
Now for intermediates I run Hakka WR-G3, which is one of the only REAL all-season tires, as it carries the three peak winter tire approval.

And the skinnier the tire, with the tallest sidewall, the better for winter. I use 185's on my winter Civic Si, that I also use for ice racing.

There is a reason why pro rally cars use tires as skinny as 135 on ice.

 

[krzyss]

If you want one set of tires to do decent in all weather try Nokian WR (G3 nowadays), Toyo Celsius or Vredestein Quatrac 5.
In Canada they have Hankook Optimo 4S, I do not think they are available in the USA.

After 6/32" their snow performance diminishes, just like all snow tires, so be ready to dump them sooner than 2 or 4/32. Unless you have two set of wheels and use one set to kill the tires in better weather but then the point was to have one set.

Krzys

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: krzyss
If you want one set of tires to do decent in all weather try Nokian WR (G3 nowadays), Toyo Celsius or Vredestein Quatrac 5.
In Canada they have Hankook Optimo 4S, I do not think they are available in the USA.

After 6/32" their snow performance diminishes, just like all snow tires, so be ready to dump them sooner than 2 or 4/32. Unless you have two set of wheels and use one set to kill the tires in better weather but then the point was to have one set.

Krzys

What is decent?
Tire that is OK in all weather conditions is not good in any.

 

[NissanMaxima]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
If you're going to insist on getting one set for year-round use, it's going to be tough because, all else equal, the tires that are better in snow are going to be worse elsewhere. You'll just have to decide how much you value snow traction vs. everything else.

It totally makes sense to want a tire that isn't completely useless in snow, just in case you get caught off-guard. A tire like that will usually have a tread compound that's really good for cold temps, so you can also run it for more of the year (vs. a summer tire or 3-season-focused AS tire). Those caught-off-guard scenarios basically never involve heavy snow, so light snow traction is all you need to worry about. The regular A/S 3 would have been okay for that purpose; the A/S 3+ is better (enhanced winter performance was the point of the "+"). The DWS 06 is maybe a shade better than that, though it must be said Tire Rack's test results between the A/S 3+ and the DWS 08 were mixed.

...But yeah, definitely plan to get the winter set next winter.


Thanks dOODfOOd. I think two tires that would fit this requirement would be either the Michelin Premier and the Cont. TrueContact. Several folks I talked to at tirerack liked both and emphasized winter traction would be better than the Michelin Pilot Sport AS 3+ according to their tests. Both of these are not UHP tires so also have longer tread life. In fact the Continentals claim 80k miles. We are also very conservative drivers so probably have no need for UHP tires. Also, I know in general tires with long tread life aren't supposed to be soft enough for winter as eddvy has pointed out but perhaps this isn't always true for every tire made out there. They are also both V rated so one step down from the original W tires that came with the tire so that leads me to believe they are well constructed as well. After careful deliberation, I believe I have settled on the Continental True Contact. I know if I run them year round they won't be as good in any season compared to dedicated 3 season plus winter dedicated tires but, for the occasional snowstorm in metro Denver with short commutes (we don't ever really go to the mountains like Eddvw does here) combined with the the fact they are going on a Corolla and our conservative driving style, I think they might be just fine. Alternatively, I guess I can always try them during next winter season and if they don't work well, I can get that dedicated winter set and still have a set of all seasons that according to tirerack do quite well in light snow conditions. I was a bit disappointed the continentals aren't made in USA like the Michelin Premier as I like to support our local economy and wonder about quality control but learned that only 40% or so of tires are made in USA and the rest world-wide. The continentals are made in Mexico like Pirelli and Firestone so I guess they are in good company!

I also spotted this thread about them here where a lot of people said they liked the all season performance with several folks living in the snow-belt:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/4352366/

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: NissanMaxima
We are also very conservative drivers so probably have no need for UHP tires.

Of course you don't. Until you get into a hairy situation in the rain, or have to make a legit panic stop. The difference in 60-0 braking distances between a top-of-the-line tire and the next category down is measured in feet, usually several if not a dozen or more. Could be life-or-death, and not just yours.


Originally Posted By: NissanMaxima
Also, I know in general tires with long tread life aren't supposed to be soft enough for winter as eddvy has pointed out but perhaps this isn't always true for every tire made out there.

I mean, that's kind of the definition of "in general".

Hope you don't actually mean to bank on a "perhaps" when it comes to the most important single part of your car.


Originally Posted By: NissanMaxima
They are also both V rated so one step down from the original W tires that came with the tire so that leads me to believe they are well constructed as well.

Of course they are. No one said V-rated tires aren't well made; the point is that W and Y are better.


Originally Posted By: NissanMaxima
After careful deliberation, I believe I have settled on the Continental True Contact. I know if I run them year round they won't be as good in any season compared to dedicated 3 season plus winter dedicated tires but, for the occasional snowstorm in metro Denver with short commutes (we don't ever really go to the mountains like Eddvw does here) combined with the the fact they are going on a Corolla and our conservative driving style, I think they might be just fine. Alternatively, I guess I can always try them during next winter season and if they don't work well, I can get that dedicated winter set and still have a set of all seasons that according to tirerack do quite well in light snow conditions. I was a bit disappointed the continentals aren't made in USA like the Michelin Premier as I like to support our local economy and wonder about quality control but learned that only 40% or so of tires are made in USA and the rest world-wide. The continentals are made in Mexico like Pirelli and Firestone so I guess they are in good company!

I also spotted this thread about them here where a lot of people said they liked the all season performance with several folks living in the snow-belt:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/4352366/

I'm guessing you'll be fine and never know what you're missing. No one ever does until they actually try season-specific tires (or crash).

After you've had a chance to put a few thousand miles on them, please remember to post back and let us know how they do.

 

[krzyss]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: krzyss
If you want one set of tires to do decent in all weather try Nokian WR (G3 nowadays), Toyo Celsius or Vredestein Quatrac 5.
In Canada they have Hankook Optimo 4S, I do not think they are available in the USA.

After 6/32" their snow performance diminishes, just like all snow tires, so be ready to dump them sooner than 2 or 4/32. Unless you have two set of wheels and use one set to kill the tires in better weather but then the point was to have one set.

Krzys

What is decent?
Tire that is OK in all weather conditions is not good in any.


Yes, you can always do better with season specific tires. Just some people are not willing to do so.
I cannot force them but I would support legislation to force them even though I prefer smaller government role.

Krzys