M5 for sale in the GTA

[cchase]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
But the LT5 from ZR-1 which was used in one production car of which there were 6,939 made and cost upward of $70K is somehow more relevant?

You have a good point. Anything else is speculation. I imagine that the SBF or SBC would have done it just as well, but there's no way to know.

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

Right. The point I do agree with is that that the German cars typically feel more composed at that speed. I've never argued that the same couldn't be done (sustained top speeds) in other marques however.


I agree with you on this point. It was hattaresguy and his obligatory "Germans own all" that initiated this discussion

. I think a good portion of German cars and speed is down to RWD more than anything else though. FWD can make the best designed car feel floaty at high speeds.

 

[mechanicx]

Actually medium to large front wheel drive cars like even the lowly Malibu and Impala are quiet stable at high speed. A long wheelbase, plenty of caster and a high polar moment goes a long way. Of course high performance models intended to go triple digits would have more attention paid to aero lift and have higher speed tires and a higher speed limiter. You could write a new song, "high speed stability doesn't impress me much" lol.

 

[Y_K]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
but where in N.A. can you exceed 100mph for more than a minute or two before fear of visiting the yokel county jail for a night takes over?

In Montana, where they place little white crosses along the highways to mark the people who killed themselves doing this.
No speed limit in Germany is a myth, btw. They change the rules all the time. There are large portions with no limits, and there are large stretches with ones. And, their pile-up crashes are spectacular too..
M_Series BMW are specially engineered cars, not just some souped up mods of the regular production series. They are special, and require special care.

 

[hattaresguy]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
The mythical reputation of the Germans is gone forever.

My Wife put an E55 on the trailer playing on our local stretch of deserted toll road. I'll bet he didn't want to admit a Chrysler made his car break. 3 runs a bit past 150 had him smoking and pulling over!

MANY American cars can cruise all day at triple digits without breaking a sweat. It's really no big deal anymore. A lot of them I see manage the airflow under the body as well as over it, my car even has vents in the rear wheel wells that are for air to escape as well as a real wind tunnel tested spoiler designed expressly for speed.

Decades ago we would pick up a cheap rental at the Newark airport and run all the way to Atlantic City flat out as fast as they would go. Even a Caravan ran 100 plus for the entire way without a peep!







Depending on the year of your Chrysler and the year of the E55...they are cousins and probably both have the 722.6 gear box.

The 300C when it first came out was based on the W210, although I'm sure that has changed at some point along the line.

 

[Audios]

Im looking for a 1988 M5 if anyone knows one for sale.

Carry on

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
An LS1 Z28 will happily run hours at WOT. The LS engines might be the most overbuilt production engines ever built.

Originally Posted By: Virtuoso
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Nothing drives like a German car at high speed. These cars are built from the ground up to be able to run at WOT all day long. The Germans have a long tradition of high speed driving. Our cars like the CTSV are fast, but we live in the land of the double nickle speed limit, we just don't have that tradition. So while a CTSV will haul it will not drive at 150mph like a Brabus V12 Mercedes, or a BMW M5. It just won't.


This.

Had a discussion with an old boss awhile back about German cars. He drove a nondescript BMW; and he loved driving them after he spend some time abroad. He said "Sure, we have fast cars here in the states. Mustangs, Camaros, etc. But you can't take them on the autobahn and wrap them out forever like you can a BMW. They're just not built for it. They will take it for a while, but eventually, that engine will come apart on you keeping up with the traffic."


I'd argue that title belongs to the '03/'04 Cobra 4.6L with its steel crank, H-beam rods, forged pistons and 6-bolt mains. But the LS motors are generally VERY tough

Unless and until you can show me a Cobra 4.6 holding together making 1200HP with 20+psi of boost on STOCK internals...no.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle


Unless and until you can show me a Cobra 4.6 holding together making 1200HP with 20+psi of boost on STOCK internals...no.


There are PLENTY of them........ You aren't familiar with the "termi" obviously.

Buddy of mine co-owns a tuning shop in Florida, used to work for Steeda up in the GTA. His conservatively tuned DD Termi made 850 to the tires on the higher octane tune, which is ~1000HP flywheel.

I'm assuming your 1200HP boosted reference is to the Hot Rod or whatever magazine it was LSx build that wasn't in a car?

100% stock engine with a pair of hair dryers:


Quote:
2-24-08 // Car now makes over 925 RWHP on 116/93 mix gas.


That would be 1063HP (roughly) flywheel.

Again, these are real cars (and there are a lot of them out there) that came from the factory with built motors (like the Ford GT), not some magazine build.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Unless and until you can show me a Cobra 4.6 holding together making 1200HP with 20+psi of boost on STOCK internals...no.


Contrary to popular urban myth/over zealous ricer belief, not even the much vaunted 2JZGTE could actually do this very well, or for very long (and it would take MUCH MORE THAN 20 psi to get there!!).

Not too many others from ANY country either.

What were you implying could???

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
22 years ago the L-98 and LT-5 powered Corvettes set world records for endurance. Why hasn't any German car manufacturer even attempted to break these records if their cars are known for "German V8 will run at WOT all day long for hundreds of thousands of miles without complaint" on the autobahn ?

http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/specs/c4/zr1/record.html









That record is currently held by VW, who broke it in 2001.

Quote:

VOLKSWAGEN W12 COUPE BREAKS 24-HOUR WORLD SPEED RECORD
Volkswagen is the new world speed record holder! Unbelievable but true. On October 14, a team of engineers from the German giant headed by project manager Rudolf-Helmut Strozyk let loose race drivers Dieter Depping (Germany) and Jean-Francois Hemroulle in a specially built W12 coupe on the famous Fiat-owned Nardo test circuit in the south of Italy. The car ran non-stop for more than 24 hours to prove not only the strong feature of the six-litre W12 powerplant (with 600bhp and 620Nm of torque at its disposal) and the six-speed sequential shift transmission but also that Volkswagen managed to better the world speed record over 24 hours even though it lost 40 minutes to a broken diffuser.

Running flat out, the W12 (fuelled by Shell and shod with standard production Pirelli tyres), the W12 covered 7,985.7 kilometres at an average speed of 295.24kmph for 24 hours, this being a new world speed record. If that was not all, the W12 also broke the world speed record for 5000km and 5000 miles at an average speed of 295.44kmph and 291.87kmph respectively.

If that wasn't all, the W12 broke six other class records including the one hour record which it took at an average speed of 310.99kmph; the 6-hour record at 311.58kmph; the 500 kilometres at 307.64kmph; the 500 miles at 308.81kmph; the 1000 kilometres at 311.09kmph and the 1000 miles at 311.51kmph.




That says "specially built" coupe (the GTI you've pictured I guess?), NOT a showroom production car, which albeit limited run, and costly, the LT5 ZR1 most definitely WAS!

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Unless and until you can show me a Cobra 4.6 holding together making 1200HP with 20+psi of boost on STOCK internals...no.


Contrary to popular urban myth/over zealous ricer belief, not even the much vaunted 2JZGTE could actually do this very well, or for very long (and it would take MUCH MORE THAN 20 psi to get there!!).

Not too many others from ANY country either.

What were you implying could???


I am implying NOTHING. I am STATING that Hot Rod took a 5.3 litre LS truck motor (with 100,000+ miles and a big rust spot in one cylinder) from a junkyard, put twin-turbos on it (stock pistons, stock bearings, ported stock heads), and made 1200HP. AFTER they did, they realized that their 5.3 was actually a 4.8 litre...their junkyard dog was making 250HP/litre, more than 4hp/ci. It made 25+ dyno pulls (most over 1000HP) and never missed a beat.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Unless and until you can show me a Cobra 4.6 holding together making 1200HP with 20+psi of boost on STOCK internals...no.


Contrary to popular urban myth/over zealous ricer belief, not even the much vaunted 2JZGTE could actually do this very well, or for very long (and it would take MUCH MORE THAN 20 psi to get there!!).

Not too many others from ANY country either.

What were you implying could???


I am implying NOTHING. I am STATING that Hot Rod took a 5.3 litre LS truck motor (with 100,000+ miles and a big rust spot in one cylinder) from a junkyard, put twin-turbos on it (stock pistons, stock bearings, ported stock heads), and made 1200HP. AFTER they did, they realized that their 5.3 was actually a 4.8 litre...their junkyard dog was making 250HP/litre, more than 4hp/ci. It made 25+ dyno pulls (most over 1000HP) and never missed a beat.


Hot Rod took a 4.8 and installed ported heads, aftermarket cam, and aftermarket intake, tore the bottom end down and opened up the rings gaps, shoved 27 psi of boost down the thing on an ENGINE DYNO (with 118 octane fuel) and it survived some pulls. Big whoop. Let's see how reliable it is on the street with an actual load, moving a few thousand pounds with real world EGTs. If you think this engine is ANYTHING but a ticking time bomb IN THE REAL WORLD you're sorely out of touch.

Hellion made 1089 RWHP with a STOCK 03 Cobra long block (i.e. stock heads/cams, stock Mach 1 intake) years ago, with less boost.

Simply put, the Manley H-beam Zollner piston 03/04 Cobra rod and piston combo is stronger than anything put into a stock LS1/LS2/LS3 and the 4.6 block and forged cranks are as strong or stronger than anything LSx.

Let me know when an LSx is running 6.0s@237 mph and making upwards of 2500 rwhp (on gasoline) with a stock crank, stock block casting, stock cylinder head castings (with port work), and a largely stock valve-train. Because a Ford 281 is doing it.

 

[Jarlaxle]

No, you're not paying attention: stock pistons, stock bearings, and twenty-plus dyno pulls over 1000HP on a 100,000+ mile bottom end! They opened the top ring gap on the STOCK top ring (all rings & all other ring gaps unchanged), they used an off the shelf Comp cam & lifters (stock lifters were clogged or they'd have been reused), and a FAST intake. (The truck intake is totally unsuited for what they were doing...a Corvette or Camaro motor could have used the stock piece.)

They were TRYING to blow it up, they were trying to find the power limit of an LS short-block. It's more than 1200HP...though that's where the STOCK ignition reaches its limit. They hammered that engine for more than 60 pulls (most of them over 1000HP and most to 7000RPM) and it never missed a beat!

 

[MrHorspwer]

Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
No, you're not paying attention: stock pistons, stock bearings, and twenty-plus dyno pulls over 1000HP on a 100,000+ mile bottom end! They opened the top ring gap on the STOCK top ring (all rings & all other ring gaps unchanged), they used an off the shelf Comp cam & lifters (stock lifters were clogged or they'd have been reused), and a FAST intake. (The truck intake is totally unsuited for what they were doing...a Corvette or Camaro motor could have used the stock piece.)

They were TRYING to blow it up, they were trying to find the power limit of an LS short-block. It's more than 1200HP...though that's where the STOCK ignition reaches its limit. They hammered that engine for more than 60 pulls (most of them over 1000HP and most to 7000RPM) and it never missed a beat!


No, you're not paying attention.

This is Bob is the Oil Guy. Ben99GT and OVERK1LL will fight to the death that Ford mod motors are the end all, be all, bestest, and fastest engines ever made. They seek out such threads, doing daily searches for terms like "LSx" and "HP/liter". At least one reply will contain the word "Terminator".

These engines would dominate in Top Fuel, but the NHRA is afraid of them and won't allow OHC engines. They'd do it all on a stock short block too. They wouldn't need nitromethane either: They'd do it on a pump gas blend.

The rest of BITOG love Crown Vics. That right there should tell you that the Ford love goes deeeeeeeeep around here. It's like insulting a redneck. Insult one and you'd better be prepared to deal with the whole family.

Just kidding. I love you Ford guys... not really

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
No, you're not paying attention: stock pistons, stock bearings, and twenty-plus dyno pulls over 1000HP on a 100,000+ mile bottom end! They opened the top ring gap on the STOCK top ring (all rings & all other ring gaps unchanged), they used an off the shelf Comp cam & lifters (stock lifters were clogged or they'd have been reused), and a FAST intake. (The truck intake is totally unsuited for what they were doing...a Corvette or Camaro motor could have used the stock piece.)

They were TRYING to blow it up, they were trying to find the power limit of an LS short-block. It's more than 1200HP...though that's where the STOCK ignition reaches its limit. They hammered that engine for more than 60 pulls (most of them over 1000HP and most to 7000RPM) and it never missed a beat!


No, you're not paying attention.

This is Bob is the Oil Guy. Ben99GT and OVERK1LL will fight to the death that Ford mod motors are the end all, be all, bestest, and fastest engines ever made. They seek out such threads, doing daily searches for terms like "LSx" and "HP/liter". At least one reply will contain the word "Terminator".

These engines would dominate in Top Fuel, but the NHRA is afraid of them and won't allow OHC engines. They'd do it all on a stock short block too. They wouldn't need nitromethane either: They'd do it on a pump gas blend.

The rest of BITOG love Crown Vics. That right there should tell you that the Ford love goes deeeeeeeeep around here. It's like insulting a redneck. Insult one and you'd better be prepared to deal with the whole family.

Just kidding. I love you Ford guys... not really

Interesting, considering this thread was about an M5 for sale in the GTA, not Ford OR GM. Yet both of you guys are in here injecting the good 'ol GM lovin' into it.

Which begs the question as to how YOU ended up in here if you weren't searching for those terms yourself? After all, the title of this thread has absolutely NOTHING to do with any of the marques now being discussed

For all the "the Ford guys start everything" tripe and subsequent finger pointing, it wasn't the Ford guys that derailed this thread nor stated that the LSx was the "most overbuilt engine ever". No, that gem rests in the laps of the members of the "GM crew" who apparently feel that a magazine article (conveniently cited without the facts Ben brought up) is solid proof that a junkyard truck LSx is the modern day longblock messiah and will make 1200HP all day long.

Which begs the question as to why people aren't building 1200HP LSx engines all day long using junkyard longblocks.........

If Ben OR myself had EVER claimed that some torn down 4.6L (regardless of its origin) that ended up with ported heads, aftermarket cams, intake....etc was "stock", we'd be burned at the stake!

But when it is an LSx that they are "trying to blow up" (and conveniently even with the aftermarket intake, camshaft, ported heads....etc that they draw the line at upgrading the ignition?

) all of these things are magically OK!

No, there's no double standard here.....

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
No, you're not paying attention: stock pistons, stock bearings, and twenty-plus dyno pulls over 1000HP on a 100,000+ mile bottom end! They opened the top ring gap on the STOCK top ring (all rings & all other ring gaps unchanged), they used an off the shelf Comp cam & lifters (stock lifters were clogged or they'd have been reused), and a FAST intake. (The truck intake is totally unsuited for what they were doing...a Corvette or Camaro motor could have used the stock piece.)

They were TRYING to blow it up, they were trying to find the power limit of an LS short-block. It's more than 1200HP...though that's where the STOCK ignition reaches its limit. They hammered that engine for more than 60 pulls (most of them over 1000HP and most to 7000RPM) and it never missed a beat!


OK, so let me get this straight, just so that we are on the same page:

1. Hot Rod takes a stock 4.8L truck engine and:
- Upgrades the intake
- Opens up the ring gap
- Installs and aftermarket camshaft
- Installs aftermarket lifters
- Installs ported heads
- Install an aftermarket intake

Then runs it on an engine dyno and claimed they couldn't blow it up, conveniently not upgrading the only component that would have arguably allowed them to blow it up: The ignition.

2. Hellion (an aftermarket turbo company) slaps a set of turbo's on a completely stock '03 Cobra and makes 1089RWHP. Many other people do the exact same thing.


And you somehow feel that the example cited in #1 is:
a. "stock"
b. More "valid" than #2, which is ACTUALLY stock

Am I correct?


I've never argued that the LSx isn't a great engine. In fact, the quote you replied to was me agreeing with you that it was indeed an excellent engine family.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
No, you're not paying attention: stock pistons, stock bearings, and twenty-plus dyno pulls over 1000HP on a 100,000+ mile bottom end! They opened the top ring gap on the STOCK top ring (all rings & all other ring gaps unchanged), they used an off the shelf Comp cam & lifters (stock lifters were clogged or they'd have been reused), and a FAST intake. (The truck intake is totally unsuited for what they were doing...a Corvette or Camaro motor could have used the stock piece.)

They were TRYING to blow it up, they were trying to find the power limit of an LS short-block. It's more than 1200HP...though that's where the STOCK ignition reaches its limit. They hammered that engine for more than 60 pulls (most of them over 1000HP and most to 7000RPM) and it never missed a beat!


No, you're not paying attention.

This is Bob is the Oil Guy. Ben99GT and OVERK1LL will fight to the death that Ford mod motors are the end all, be all, bestest, and fastest engines ever made. They seek out such threads, doing daily searches for terms like "LSx" and "HP/liter". At least one reply will contain the word "Terminator".

These engines would dominate in Top Fuel, but the NHRA is afraid of them and won't allow OHC engines. They'd do it all on a stock short block too. They wouldn't need nitromethane either: They'd do it on a pump gas blend.

The rest of BITOG love Crown Vics. That right there should tell you that the Ford love goes deeeeeeeeep around here. It's like insulting a redneck. Insult one and you'd better be prepared to deal with the whole family.

Just kidding. I love you Ford guys... not really

Hey, I like Panther cars, I like Ford trucks...but I accept that the LSx engine series is probably superior to Ford's Modular engine series.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
No, you're not paying attention: stock pistons, stock bearings, and twenty-plus dyno pulls over 1000HP on a 100,000+ mile bottom end! They opened the top ring gap on the STOCK top ring (all rings & all other ring gaps unchanged), they used an off the shelf Comp cam & lifters (stock lifters were clogged or they'd have been reused), and a FAST intake. (The truck intake is totally unsuited for what they were doing...a Corvette or Camaro motor could have used the stock piece.)

They were TRYING to blow it up, they were trying to find the power limit of an LS short-block. It's more than 1200HP...though that's where the STOCK ignition reaches its limit. They hammered that engine for more than 60 pulls (most of them over 1000HP and most to 7000RPM) and it never missed a beat!


OK, so let me get this straight, just so that we are on the same page:

1. Hot Rod takes a stock 4.8L truck engine and:
- Upgrades the intake
- Opens up the ring gap
- Installs and aftermarket camshaft
- Installs aftermarket lifters
- Installs ported heads
- Install an aftermarket intake

Then runs it on an engine dyno and claimed they couldn't blow it up, conveniently not upgrading the only component that would have arguably allowed them to blow it up: The ignition.


I suspect they expected the bottom end to give out before the ignition! (I would have...GM's C-O-P ignition is superb.) They were testing the strength of the stock short-block...they replaced the intake because the stock intake (remember: it's truck motor) is a low-RPM design, the added ported heads & a cam for much the same reason. They used aftermarket lifters because they had to...the stock lifters were plugged with glop. (If OK, they'd have been reused.) ONLY the wider ring gap (on stock 100,000+ mile rings!) had any impact on durability.

Quote:
2. Hellion (an aftermarket turbo company) slaps a set of turbo's on a completely stock '03 Cobra and makes 1089RWHP. Many other people do the exact same thing.

And you somehow feel that the example cited in #1 is:
a. "stock"
b. More "valid" than #2, which is ACTUALLY stock

Am I correct?


No, you're STILL not paying attention! Trying to find the limit of the stock short-block, they TRIED to blow up the engine. Despite force-feeding it 25+psi of boost, spinning it to 7000RPM, and hammering it for more than 60 dyno pulls, they couldn't.

Having said that...I DO feel it's more valid than the Hellion test, for one simple reason: just about anything can make big power...once. Hammer on that Cobra motor for 25 1000+HP dyno pulls, THEN see if it's still running! (Personally, I am stunned it hasn't lifted a head...common on boosted Modular engines.)

Having said that, let's compare apples with apples: try the Hellion turbos in a 4.6 from a pickup or Econoline, see how that works.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Having said that...I DO feel it's more valid than the Hellion test, for one simple reason: just about anything can make big power...once. Hammer on that Cobra motor for 25 1000+HP dyno pulls, THEN see if it's still running! (Personally, I am stunned it hasn't lifted a head...common on boosted Modular engines.)


The Hellion example is far more valid for the simple reason it survived street miles and chassis dyno time. Engine dyno loading isn't really representative of real world load (vehicle weight, aero drag, driveline friction, etc.) , nor will a controlled dyno session have varying inlet temps or real world EGTs, this makes a drastic difference on component longevity.

Quote:
Having said that, let's compare apples with apples: try the Hellion turbos in a 4.6 from a pickup or Econoline, see how that works.


You tried to claim a stock 4.8 short block is stronger than the 03/04 Cobra's, why the shift in your argument? As far as stock Modulars lifting heads under boost, talk out of your rear much? Most lifted head Modulars I've seen are using ARP head studs installed by people that don't know the nuances of properly torquing a set. I can count on one hand than number of lifted heads I've seen with stock TTY bolts, much less properly installed head ARPs. Head sealing is actually exceptional with the Mod motors.

Is a stock 4.8/5.3/LS1 rod stronger than a cracked cap powdered 4.6 2V/4V rod? Yes. But it isn't as strong as a Manley, or even a powdered Boss 302 rod.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Oh boy. here we go.

I'm a real GM fan. But I am also a real car guy, and thus I love them all if they haul [censored] and do it reliably at a reasonable cost.

The rag article is suspect, simply because it's a form of advertising. But even if technically inaccurate it is still an incredible achievement, due to the fact that they really DID try to break this motor! C'mon, even a die hard blue oval guy can give it up for a little bitty 4.8 with a real junkyard bottom end making 4 digits for 60 runs!

No one who spends any time at the strip can deny the Ford Terminator is an incredibly cheap way to make world class power. But it truly was DESIGNED to, I really don't think GM ever expected anyone to build a 4.8/5.3/6.0 to these levels.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
No one who spends any time at the strip can deny the Ford Terminator is an incredibly cheap way to make world class power. But it truly was DESIGNED to, I really don't think GM ever expected anyone to build a 4.8/5.3/6.0 to these levels.


Yep, and it's WAY beyond its design parameters and not remotely reliable at those power levels. Plenty LS rod bolts have been known to fail at less than 500 to the wheels when shifting at ~7000 rpm, speaking of which I wonder if the 4.8 used stock rod bolts.