M1 15W-50 mix, '90 Saab 900, 2.0L N/A, 13+ months/6,500 miles

[Eiron]

code:

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Vehicle 1990 Saab 900, 2.0L I4 (N/A)

Miles on engine 165,500

Miles on oil 6,500

Time on oil 13 months, 2 weeks (02.Oct.02 – 16.Nov.03)

Oil capacity 4 qts

Oil added 1 qt, Saab ACEA A3 (API SJ) 5W-30 semi syn

Oil filter ACDelco PF13, not changed during interval

Air filter K&N drop-in, last cleaned at 150,000 miles

Driving Use 95%+ short trips (less than 10 miles)

Copper 9

Iron 13

Chrome 0

Lead 0

Aluminum 3

Silicon 0

Molybdenum 0

Sodium 10

Calcium 2288

Tin 0

Potassium 0

Magnesium 79

Zinc 1312

Water Neg

Glycol Neg

TBN 8.5 (ASTM D5984-96)

Viscosity 14.2

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Part count >=5um 8345

>=15um 276

ISO # 20/15

Lab S.O.S. Fluid Analysis, H.O. Penn Machinery

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Weirdness factors:
1) Right after I filled with this oil we had 3 weeks of sub-freezing temps (last 3 wks of Oct 2002). IIRC, it never got above freezing day or night for more than one of those weeks, & the rest of the time it was around 0°F at night & in the 30’s during the day. So that was good way to start this interval, don’t you think?
2) The car is used as the household pickup. During the spring & summer I hauled home several loads of landscaping & decorating materials (trees, rocks, tile, cement, etc; usually around 850-900 lbs max).
3) I pulled the sample in Nov, but never got around to filling out the form & sending it in. It’s been sitting in my garage all winter (nearly 3 months). The lab said it shouldn’t affect their readings.
4) The lab also said mixing the two oils (Saab 5W-30 VOA here) was probably the reason why they couldn’t get valid oxidation/nitration numbers.
5) Moly is zero & zinc is up, compared to the M1 15W-50 VOA info we have. I’m wondering if maybe I got a batch with a slightly different composition?

[ February 24, 2004, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: Eiron ]

 

[Drew99GT]

Better get that K&N outa there, look at all that silicon....................oh wait, never mind

 

[Al]

Great numbers. Almost too good. Silicon=0

never seen that one. I really don't believe it

. Was the Mobil 1 the TriSyn version?? (No moly)

 

[Last_Z]

Very good report for such a thick oil and freezing temperatures.

 

[vvk]

No wonder these beasts last for 1/2 million miles or more...

 

[quadrun1]

Fantastic! Wow! Pb=0 -- drool!

The normally aspirated SAAB engines sure are a lot easier on oil than their turbocharged counterparts...

TBN=8.5 after 13.5 months and 6,500 miles of short trips, wow!!!

 

[Eiron]

Items I forgot:

1) The previous 40k miles were run on Castrol Syntec at 10k mi OCIs; 5W-50 (first interval) & 10W-30 (next 3 intervals).
I panicked when I learned it was a Group III oil & went to the far extreme of the 15W-50. Maybe the Syntec wasn't so bad in a N/A engine? Maybe I was using the old PAO version of Syntec? (I did buy it on clearance at WalMart.) We'll never know ...


Drew,
Yeah, this may be the only benefit to replacing gravel/salt with mag chloride: no pulverized dirt getting sucked in all winter long. Well, that & fewer windshield chips, too ...

Al,
The Si number on my 9³'s UOA was also very low, & I'm using an uncleaned drop-in K&N there as well. Since the filter's smaller & the air-speed is higher (due to the turbo on that car), I can believe that Si here is maybe not zero, but perhaps too low to get an accurate measurement? I'm also using an oversized oil filter on this '90, so pressure differential across the media should be lower, trapping more dirt rather than forcing it thru the media.

The bottles were definitely SS, but I keep thinking about Bob's experience with one of the first batches of SS 10W-30: no moly! I think I bought this oil in Aug of '02, & I have no idea how long it had been sitting on the shelf. Maybe it suffered the same fate as Bob's 10W-30?

Last_Z,
Yeah, I was quite surprised myself! That first winter I cringed every time I started the car below 30°F!

vvk,
I can only hope! It took me 15 yrs to finally get the car I've wanted. I've only had it for 5 yrs, & my wife keeps telling me to get rid of it & buy a new one!

quadrun1,
Yeah, we'll never see zero Pb in a Saab turbo engine, will we? I don't know what the 15W-50's or the 5W-30's TBNs start out at, but since the 5W-30's diesel rated I'm guessing that one's pretty high. That's one of the reasons I decided to top up with that, rather than using more M1.

Thanks guys!

[ February 25, 2004, 03:58 AM: Message edited by: Eiron ]

 

[Patman]

Very nice! You probably could go a year and a half to two years between changes if you wanted to!

 

[vvk]

quote:

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Originally posted by Schmoe:
Some members are starting to grow on me with the thicker is better crowd. Again, could it be this engine or the oil?

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I have seen the official SAAB TSB that directs dealers to use 20W-50 oil in these engines when it's above 0'F. I know my 1986 900 16V with same engine LOVES 20W-50 oil.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Wasn't there a transitional batch of M1 sometime in 2002, when they had just switched to the new formula (SS), but did not yet add moly? That was the time when everyone was bashing Mobil for doing that.

 

[haley10]

I don't believe it.

Lead=0
Silicon=0

The age of the sample must have skewed the results or the lab has problems.

 

[edhackett]

I agree. Those numbers don't look realistic, especially in light that the VOA of M1 15W-50 showed 8 ppm Si. All of the M1 samples in the chart showed 4-8 ppm.

I talked with the folks at Royal Purple a week or so ago and the subject of lead numbers of 0 came up. I was told that the additive packages in some oils do not hold Pb in suspension. Theirs does. This might be a reason for the higher Pb numbers often seen with Redline too. It is keeping more in the oil, or as others have speculated, cleaning up that which other oils have allowed to drop out.

I'm guessing that the Pb, Si, and a portion of the rest of the wear metals in this sample are sitting at the bottom of the sample bottle, or the lab has a QC problem.

Ed

 

[Quattro Pete]

The one virgin sample we have of the old M1 TriSyn only had 1 ppm of Si. The virgin Saab oil also had very low Si, but still, 0 ppm Si in a UOA looks strange.

 

[Eiron]

I agree, the Si & Pb numbers are suspiciously low. The only defense I can offer is that all three previous analyses I had this lab run showed various levels of Si & Pb (5W-30 VOA, 0W-40 VOA, 0W-40 UOA). Again, maybe it's just a low-measurement variance that allows a zero reading? The lab tech told me every sample gets put on a "paint shaker" before an analysis is done, & I don't believe either Si or Pb will change in a sample that sits around for a while. I'll try to find out what I can from the lab.

They're currently running a second UOA on the 0W-40 in my 9³ (8,800 miles/14 months), so we'll see how much worse that one looks.

 

[Schmoe]

Is this like the candid camera? Your going to post "SURPRISE" and say you made up all those numbers....

is it really the engine or the oil? We've had this discussion many, many times. Some members are starting to grow on me with the thicker is better crowd. Again, could it be this engine or the oil?

 

[Eiron]

quote:

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Originally posted by vvk:
I have seen the official SAAB TSB that directs dealers to use 20W-50 oil in these engines when it's above 0'F. I know my 1986 900 16V with same engine LOVES 20W-50 oil.

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Hey vvk,
Can you point me towards that TSB? I can't find anything spec'g oil other than 10W-30 for this engine. Thanks!

As for the answer from the lab regarding zero Si & Pb:

The Si result can be attributed to adequate air & oil filtering. The K&N I'm using hadn't been cleaned for 15k miles prior to the sample, so I'm guessing that had something to do with it. The oil filter is the "oversized" model for this car (nearly 2X, with the same bypass pressure), & others have pointed out that an oversized filter will have lower differential pressure across the greater media surface area, thereby stopping a larger amount of slower-moving dirt. It's also the same "Made in the UK" version as the OE filter, & has a slightly different construction than most other filters I can buy.

The Pb result might be suspect if other "overlay" materials were showing up when Pb isn't. Since Cu & Sn are similarly low/absent, there's not a big flag that something's wrong with the zero Pb reading.

I'll try to answer any other questions, but I'm starting to be a pretty big PITA to these guys realtive to the amount of money they're getting from my puny wallet. I'm getting a discount rate (the rep is a Saab owner/enthusiast & has made this offer several times on the SaabNet BB) & I don't want to be "cut off" by being a big resource drain. (They process hundreds of heavy eqpt UOAs each week, so my di$count UOA isn't worth dumping a lot of resources into. That's not a slam on their customer support or method of doing business, it's simply a realization on my part that I'm getting a deal & don't want them to reconsider their offer. I do trust their results.)

[Edit:]
P.S.,
It turns out Cat Synthetic 5W-40 is also repackaged Delvac 1 (did Doug or Jerry already point this out?), so if you have access to this oil at a decent price, it might be a good deal.

[ March 15, 2004, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Eiron ]