Lg red does a good job of keeping solenoids "clean". I put it in every transmission I can, and ps systems that take atf. The fluid holds up better over time. Especially if you run old Dex/Merc. I would not add or use conversion fluids except if a last resort or emergency.
Lubegard with every ATF D&R?
- Thread starter UG_Passat
- Start date
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MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted by MolaKule
While you are 'conversing' with the ILI tech you might ask them to supply a chart which shows graphs of the original ATF's Mu(v) and another chart which shows how much this conversion fluid alters or modifies the resultant Mu(v).
Something like this:
While you are 'conversing' with the ILI tech you might ask them to supply a chart which shows graphs of the original ATF's Mu(v) and another chart which shows how much this conversion fluid alters or modifies the resultant Mu(v).
Something like this:
LubeGard was invented to replace an oil derived from whales and used as a friction modifier/conditioner. When the whaling bans began in the 1960's a need arose for a replacement. LubeGard invented an ester from plant stocks to replace this animal derived friction modifier/conditioner.
I have used the Red on a Ford E4OD, worst transmission ever produced without exception, and it helped with some of its issues but never overcame the ineptitude of Ford engineering for its major problems.
I wonder if highly friction modified fluids just normally contain ester(s) or their equivalent nowadays, negating the need for product like LubeGard?
I have used the Red on a Ford E4OD, worst transmission ever produced without exception, and it helped with some of its issues but never overcame the ineptitude of Ford engineering for its major problems.
I wonder if highly friction modified fluids just normally contain ester(s) or their equivalent nowadays, negating the need for product like LubeGard?
VW has issues with the Aisin 8-speed transmission shuddering on the factory fluid, that "supposedly" already has the optimal friction coefficients, which VW has yet to figure out how to fix. VW ATF for Aisin transmissions uses a Group III basestock oil, no esters, no PAO in it, whether it's G055025 (JWS 3309, Toyota TIV) or G055540 (JWS 3324, Toyota-WS).
I also get the "shift flare" on extremely light throttle also, ever since the car was new, which can point to the valve body... extremely annoying as it feels like a person that can't drive a manual properly (which is my first automatic in 20 years).
I'll have to try to note it in dash cam footage (without music on that I normally listen to when I drive).
I also get the "shift flare" on extremely light throttle also, ever since the car was new, which can point to the valve body... extremely annoying as it feels like a person that can't drive a manual properly (which is my first automatic in 20 years).
I'll have to try to note it in dash cam footage (without music on that I normally listen to when I drive).
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted by sloinker
...I wonder if highly friction modified fluids just normally contain ester(s) or their equivalent nowadays, negating the need for product like LubeGard?
I'll post this again and note the highlighted sentences:
Originally Posted by Molakule
ATF if a special hydraulic oil for the following purposes:
Lubrication for gears.
Cooling and heat transfer.
Transmitting torque via the Torque Converter.
Friction modification for clutch packs, bands, Torque Converter Clutch.
One of its more important duties of ATF is to make sure the fluid's coefficient of friction is matched to the friction materials inside the tranny. I.e., to ensure the proper static and dynamic coefficients of friction during engagement/disengagement.
In the early days of AT's the clutch material was composed of cellulose material with cotton and other soft materials in a phenolic resin binder. Today, hybrid materials are used.
Hybrid (or composite) materials are typically manufactured using a process similar to that used for paper-based materials, but using carbon fibers in combination with organic or synthetic fibers such as Kevlar and Aramid fibers. So Friction Materials may include cellulose, carbon fiber, Aramids, fiberglass, or a combination of materials (composites). Today, composites are the norm.
Many of the clutch materials from various manufacturers are close in terms of static and dynamic friction coefficients.
The clutch disc material of Automatic Transmissions, and other wet clutch applications, are made of porous friction materials which are bonded to steel core plates.
Note: Sintered metal composites may be found in HDD applications.
This material must exhibit:
1.) Mu(o), low speed dynamic coefficient; affected by friction material ingredients and ATF additives adsorption
2.) Mu(i), initial dynamic coefficient at high speed; affected by hydrodynamic effects/porosity/compression/roughness.
When an additive company tests its ATF additive package, many transmissions are run through the SAE2 and other friction test machines (JASO M349-98, R-H Friction Apparatus, ZF GK Test Bench, Low Velocity Friction Apparatus, etc) to determine if the Friction Modifier set is appropriate.
The friction characteristics (Mu verses Velocity) of the clutch/fluid system are carefully monitored for each separate transmission and fluid formulation.
Mu is coefficient of friction plotted on the vertical axis, V is the relative speed of rotating components plotted on the horizontal axis. Mu(v) then is the resulting curve of the frictional characteristics of the clutch/fluid system.
The appropriate FM additive type and levels are then determined for the complete additive package.
A sample of the ATF Friction Modifiers are shown below:
fatty phosphites, fatty acid amides, fatty epoxides, borated fatty epoxides, fatty amines, glycerol esters, borated glycerol esters, alkoxylated fatty amines, and borated alkoxylated fatty amines, metal salts of fatty acids, sulfurized olefins, fatty imidazolines, non-hydroxyl fatty tertiary amines, and any mixtures of the above.
The exact composition of and specific chemistry (molecular structure) of the Friction Modifier(s) are closely guarded secrets.
With the many different chemistries and potential mixes available, I think one can now see why Mutli-Vehicle fluids can be manufactured.
Ford Type "F" ATF is a fluid with very low levels of friction modification and has a Mu(V) curve separate and apart from either the Dexron Series or the Chrysler ATF+ series.
Ford Type "F" ATF is often used today in racing transmissions such as the PowerGlide and TH400 Turbohydramatics because of the positive lockup, IE, little to no slip in the clutch packs during engagement.
Chrysler ATF+ fluids are on the other end of the spectrum and exhibit a completely different Mu(V) characteristic. The ATF+ fluids are highly friction modified.
For a more Technical Study on ATs and heat transfer one can go to:
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/automatic-transmissions-study/
What I am saying is, friction modification for a specific ATF involves a very complicated and specific chemical matrix to obtain the needed Mu(v), and the ester type can affect friction coefficients and has to be considered as to how it, the base oils, and other additives affect the overall friction properties.
...I wonder if highly friction modified fluids just normally contain ester(s) or their equivalent nowadays, negating the need for product like LubeGard?
I'll post this again and note the highlighted sentences:
Originally Posted by Molakule
ATF if a special hydraulic oil for the following purposes:
Lubrication for gears.
Cooling and heat transfer.
Transmitting torque via the Torque Converter.
Friction modification for clutch packs, bands, Torque Converter Clutch.
One of its more important duties of ATF is to make sure the fluid's coefficient of friction is matched to the friction materials inside the tranny. I.e., to ensure the proper static and dynamic coefficients of friction during engagement/disengagement.
In the early days of AT's the clutch material was composed of cellulose material with cotton and other soft materials in a phenolic resin binder. Today, hybrid materials are used.
Hybrid (or composite) materials are typically manufactured using a process similar to that used for paper-based materials, but using carbon fibers in combination with organic or synthetic fibers such as Kevlar and Aramid fibers. So Friction Materials may include cellulose, carbon fiber, Aramids, fiberglass, or a combination of materials (composites). Today, composites are the norm.
Many of the clutch materials from various manufacturers are close in terms of static and dynamic friction coefficients.
The clutch disc material of Automatic Transmissions, and other wet clutch applications, are made of porous friction materials which are bonded to steel core plates.
Note: Sintered metal composites may be found in HDD applications.
This material must exhibit:
1.) Mu(o), low speed dynamic coefficient; affected by friction material ingredients and ATF additives adsorption
2.) Mu(i), initial dynamic coefficient at high speed; affected by hydrodynamic effects/porosity/compression/roughness.
When an additive company tests its ATF additive package, many transmissions are run through the SAE2 and other friction test machines (JASO M349-98, R-H Friction Apparatus, ZF GK Test Bench, Low Velocity Friction Apparatus, etc) to determine if the Friction Modifier set is appropriate.
The friction characteristics (Mu verses Velocity) of the clutch/fluid system are carefully monitored for each separate transmission and fluid formulation.
Mu is coefficient of friction plotted on the vertical axis, V is the relative speed of rotating components plotted on the horizontal axis. Mu(v) then is the resulting curve of the frictional characteristics of the clutch/fluid system.
The appropriate FM additive type and levels are then determined for the complete additive package.
A sample of the ATF Friction Modifiers are shown below:
fatty phosphites, fatty acid amides, fatty epoxides, borated fatty epoxides, fatty amines, glycerol esters, borated glycerol esters, alkoxylated fatty amines, and borated alkoxylated fatty amines, metal salts of fatty acids, sulfurized olefins, fatty imidazolines, non-hydroxyl fatty tertiary amines, and any mixtures of the above.
The exact composition of and specific chemistry (molecular structure) of the Friction Modifier(s) are closely guarded secrets.
With the many different chemistries and potential mixes available, I think one can now see why Mutli-Vehicle fluids can be manufactured.
Ford Type "F" ATF is a fluid with very low levels of friction modification and has a Mu(V) curve separate and apart from either the Dexron Series or the Chrysler ATF+ series.
Ford Type "F" ATF is often used today in racing transmissions such as the PowerGlide and TH400 Turbohydramatics because of the positive lockup, IE, little to no slip in the clutch packs during engagement.
Chrysler ATF+ fluids are on the other end of the spectrum and exhibit a completely different Mu(V) characteristic. The ATF+ fluids are highly friction modified.
For a more Technical Study on ATs and heat transfer one can go to:
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/automatic-transmissions-study/
What I am saying is, friction modification for a specific ATF involves a very complicated and specific chemical matrix to obtain the needed Mu(v), and the ester type can affect friction coefficients and has to be considered as to how it, the base oils, and other additives affect the overall friction properties.
Last edited:
MolaKule
Staff member
And:
Originally Posted by MolaKule
In an engine, we want to reduce kinetic friction, but in an Automatic Transmission, we want a controlled and specific type of static/kinetic friction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_friction
discusses static and kinetic friction. The frictional characteristics we are discussing here is dynamic friction, a special kind of 'static/kinetic' friction. Dynamic friction is a friction that changes its "coefficient of friction" as two surfaces come in contact and are in relative motion, such as in AT clutch plates.
Recall that clutch plates have alternating layers of clutch friction material and steel plates. The friction material is splined on the inside, where it locks to one of the gears. The steel plate is splined on the outside, where it locks to the clutch housing.
The pressure for the clutches is fed through passageways in the shafts. The hydraulic system controls which clutches are energized at any given moment.
In AT's we want the fluid to create a specific dynamic friction coefficient (dependent upon the clutch materials used) such that we have smooth engagement and disengagement, so we don't have shudder or slippage. Shudder and slippage cause increased frictional material wear and increased heat.
It is this complex package of frictional modifier chemical compounds found in ATF that is important for smooth operation.
Remember, a friction modifier can be a friction reducer, a friction increasor, or one that controls friction in a specified manner.
In an engine, we primarily want friction reduction. In an AT, we want controlled friction modification often called Mu(V) in the literature. The fluid must provide a specific friction versus velocity relationship.
There is a phenomenon commonly called "stick-slip" or "dynamic frictional vibration" and manifests itself as "shudder" or low speed vibration in the vehicle. Using friction modifiers in the ATF prevents this shudder.
Originally Posted by MolaKule
In an engine, we want to reduce kinetic friction, but in an Automatic Transmission, we want a controlled and specific type of static/kinetic friction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_friction
discusses static and kinetic friction. The frictional characteristics we are discussing here is dynamic friction, a special kind of 'static/kinetic' friction. Dynamic friction is a friction that changes its "coefficient of friction" as two surfaces come in contact and are in relative motion, such as in AT clutch plates.
Recall that clutch plates have alternating layers of clutch friction material and steel plates. The friction material is splined on the inside, where it locks to one of the gears. The steel plate is splined on the outside, where it locks to the clutch housing.
The pressure for the clutches is fed through passageways in the shafts. The hydraulic system controls which clutches are energized at any given moment.
In AT's we want the fluid to create a specific dynamic friction coefficient (dependent upon the clutch materials used) such that we have smooth engagement and disengagement, so we don't have shudder or slippage. Shudder and slippage cause increased frictional material wear and increased heat.
It is this complex package of frictional modifier chemical compounds found in ATF that is important for smooth operation.
Remember, a friction modifier can be a friction reducer, a friction increasor, or one that controls friction in a specified manner.
In an engine, we primarily want friction reduction. In an AT, we want controlled friction modification often called Mu(V) in the literature. The fluid must provide a specific friction versus velocity relationship.
There is a phenomenon commonly called "stick-slip" or "dynamic frictional vibration" and manifests itself as "shudder" or low speed vibration in the vehicle. Using friction modifiers in the ATF prevents this shudder.
Last edited:
Originally Posted by MolaKule
Originally Posted by sloinker
...I wonder if highly friction modified fluids just normally contain ester(s) or their equivalent nowadays, negating the need for product like LubeGard?
I'll post this again and note the highlighted sentences:
Originally Posted by Molakule
ATF if a special hydraulic oil for the following purposes:
Lubrication for gears.
Cooling and heat transfer.
Transmitting torque via the Torque Converter.
Friction modification for clutch packs, bands, Torque Converter Clutch.
One of its more important duties of ATF is to make sure the fluid's coefficient of friction is matched to the friction materials inside the tranny. I.e., to ensure the proper static and dynamic coefficients of friction during engagement/disengagement.
In the early days of AT's the clutch material was composed of cellulose material with cotton and other soft materials in a phenolic resin binder. Today, hybrid materials are used.
Hybrid (or composite) materials are typically manufactured using a process similar to that used for paper-based materials, but using carbon fibers in combination with organic or synthetic fibers such as Kevlar and Aramid fibers. So Friction Materials may include cellulose, carbon fiber, Aramids, fiberglass, or a combination of materials (composites). Today, composites are the norm.
Many of the clutch materials from various manufacturers are close in terms of static and dynamic friction coefficients.
The clutch disc material of Automatic Transmissions, and other wet clutch applications, are made of porous friction materials which are bonded to steel core plates.
Note: Sintered metal composites may be found in HDD applications.
This material must exhibit:
1.) Mu(o), low speed dynamic coefficient; affected by friction material ingredients and ATF additives adsorption
2.) Mu(i), initial dynamic coefficient at high speed; affected by hydrodynamic effects/porosity/compression/roughness.
When an additive company tests its ATF additive package, many transmissions are run through the SAE2 and other friction test machines (JASO M349-98, R-H Friction Apparatus, ZF GK Test Bench, Low Velocity Friction Apparatus, etc) to determine if the Friction Modifier set is appropriate.
The friction characteristics (Mu verses Velocity) of the clutch/fluid system are carefully monitored for each separate transmission and fluid formulation.
Mu is coefficient of friction plotted on the vertical axis, V is the relative speed of rotating components plotted on the horizontal axis. Mu(v) then is the resulting curve of the frictional characteristics of the clutch/fluid system.
The appropriate FM additive type and levels are then determined for the complete additive package.
A sample of the ATF Friction Modifiers are shown below:
fatty phosphites, fatty acid amides, fatty epoxides, borated fatty epoxides, fatty amines, glycerol esters, borated glycerol esters, alkoxylated fatty amines, and borated alkoxylated fatty amines, metal salts of fatty acids, sulfurized olefins, fatty imidazolines, non-hydroxyl fatty tertiary amines, and any mixtures of the above.
The exact composition of and specific chemistry (molecular structure) of the Friction Modifier(s) are closely guarded secrets.
With the many different chemistries and potential mixes available, I think one can now see why Mutli-Vehicle fluids can be manufactured.
Ford Type "F" ATF is a fluid with very low levels of friction modification and has a Mu(V) curve separate and apart from either the Dexron Series or the Chrysler ATF+ series.
Ford Type "F" ATF is often used today in racing transmissions such as the PowerGlide and TH400 Turbohydramatics because of the positive lockup, IE, little to no slip in the clutch packs during engagement.
Chrysler ATF+ fluids are on the other end of the spectrum and exhibit a completely different Mu(V) characteristic. The ATF+ fluids are highly friction modified.
For a more Technical Study on ATs and heat transfer one can go to:
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/automatic-transmissions-study/
What I am saying is, friction modification for a specific ATF involves a very complicated and specific chemical matrix to obtain the needed Mu(v), and the ester type can affect friction coefficients and has to considered as to how it, the base oils, and other additives affect the overall friction properties.
How do you feel about a "Multi Vehicle Transmission Fluid?" Eg: it will work in Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, etc. Thanks. I tend to shy away from them, although I did have good results with Maxlife in a Buick Century. Reading your quote seems to reinforce why, at least for me.
Originally Posted by sloinker
...I wonder if highly friction modified fluids just normally contain ester(s) or their equivalent nowadays, negating the need for product like LubeGard?
I'll post this again and note the highlighted sentences:
Originally Posted by Molakule
ATF if a special hydraulic oil for the following purposes:
Lubrication for gears.
Cooling and heat transfer.
Transmitting torque via the Torque Converter.
Friction modification for clutch packs, bands, Torque Converter Clutch.
One of its more important duties of ATF is to make sure the fluid's coefficient of friction is matched to the friction materials inside the tranny. I.e., to ensure the proper static and dynamic coefficients of friction during engagement/disengagement.
In the early days of AT's the clutch material was composed of cellulose material with cotton and other soft materials in a phenolic resin binder. Today, hybrid materials are used.
Hybrid (or composite) materials are typically manufactured using a process similar to that used for paper-based materials, but using carbon fibers in combination with organic or synthetic fibers such as Kevlar and Aramid fibers. So Friction Materials may include cellulose, carbon fiber, Aramids, fiberglass, or a combination of materials (composites). Today, composites are the norm.
Many of the clutch materials from various manufacturers are close in terms of static and dynamic friction coefficients.
The clutch disc material of Automatic Transmissions, and other wet clutch applications, are made of porous friction materials which are bonded to steel core plates.
Note: Sintered metal composites may be found in HDD applications.
This material must exhibit:
1.) Mu(o), low speed dynamic coefficient; affected by friction material ingredients and ATF additives adsorption
2.) Mu(i), initial dynamic coefficient at high speed; affected by hydrodynamic effects/porosity/compression/roughness.
When an additive company tests its ATF additive package, many transmissions are run through the SAE2 and other friction test machines (JASO M349-98, R-H Friction Apparatus, ZF GK Test Bench, Low Velocity Friction Apparatus, etc) to determine if the Friction Modifier set is appropriate.
The friction characteristics (Mu verses Velocity) of the clutch/fluid system are carefully monitored for each separate transmission and fluid formulation.
Mu is coefficient of friction plotted on the vertical axis, V is the relative speed of rotating components plotted on the horizontal axis. Mu(v) then is the resulting curve of the frictional characteristics of the clutch/fluid system.
The appropriate FM additive type and levels are then determined for the complete additive package.
A sample of the ATF Friction Modifiers are shown below:
fatty phosphites, fatty acid amides, fatty epoxides, borated fatty epoxides, fatty amines, glycerol esters, borated glycerol esters, alkoxylated fatty amines, and borated alkoxylated fatty amines, metal salts of fatty acids, sulfurized olefins, fatty imidazolines, non-hydroxyl fatty tertiary amines, and any mixtures of the above.
The exact composition of and specific chemistry (molecular structure) of the Friction Modifier(s) are closely guarded secrets.
With the many different chemistries and potential mixes available, I think one can now see why Mutli-Vehicle fluids can be manufactured.
Ford Type "F" ATF is a fluid with very low levels of friction modification and has a Mu(V) curve separate and apart from either the Dexron Series or the Chrysler ATF+ series.
Ford Type "F" ATF is often used today in racing transmissions such as the PowerGlide and TH400 Turbohydramatics because of the positive lockup, IE, little to no slip in the clutch packs during engagement.
Chrysler ATF+ fluids are on the other end of the spectrum and exhibit a completely different Mu(V) characteristic. The ATF+ fluids are highly friction modified.
For a more Technical Study on ATs and heat transfer one can go to:
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/automatic-transmissions-study/
What I am saying is, friction modification for a specific ATF involves a very complicated and specific chemical matrix to obtain the needed Mu(v), and the ester type can affect friction coefficients and has to considered as to how it, the base oils, and other additives affect the overall friction properties.
How do you feel about a "Multi Vehicle Transmission Fluid?" Eg: it will work in Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, etc. Thanks. I tend to shy away from them, although I did have good results with Maxlife in a Buick Century. Reading your quote seems to reinforce why, at least for me.
Originally Posted by MolaKule
Originally Posted by Tikka
Hi
Please do not mistake my questions as being snotty. Genuinely interested to know
Why do you think there is a need to add lubeguard? What is the correct spec ATF lacking?
Thanks.
Tikka
Did you mean to ask: "What in the specified ATF formulation is lacking in terms of its chemistry?"
Hi
Yes I suppose I am.
Why use aftermarket additives at all? If the correct specification ATF is used I presume its chemistry is matched to the transmission. If it is improved by aftermarket additives then surely the specified ATF is not fit for purpose?
Tikka.
Originally Posted by Tikka
Hi
Please do not mistake my questions as being snotty. Genuinely interested to know
Why do you think there is a need to add lubeguard? What is the correct spec ATF lacking?
Thanks.
Tikka
Did you mean to ask: "What in the specified ATF formulation is lacking in terms of its chemistry?"
Hi
Yes I suppose I am.
Why use aftermarket additives at all? If the correct specification ATF is used I presume its chemistry is matched to the transmission. If it is improved by aftermarket additives then surely the specified ATF is not fit for purpose?
Tikka.
I have had some people recommend Idemitsu TLS-LV for my Passat which also has an Aisin transmission. The fluid the VW dealer usually would sell for my car is G 055 540 A2. That fluid is not cheap at all either if you buy that one. It sells for $24.80. UG_Passat is right about the issues that these Aisin transmissions can have. Surely there must be a better transmission VW could have chosen? These would be very nice cars if they didn't have the transmission problems like those. Some people use the Toyota branded fluid in these just because of price. You can buy 2 or 3 bottles of fluid for the price of one bottle of VW branded fluid that way.
Originally Posted by Chuckh
I have had some people recommend Idemitsu TLS-LV for my Passat which also has an Aisin transmission. The fluid the VW dealer usually would sell for my car is G 055 540 A2. That fluid is not cheap at all either if you buy that one. It sells for $24.80. UG_Passat is right about the issues that these Aisin transmissions can have. Surely there must be a better transmission VW could have chosen? These would be very nice cars if they didn't have the transmission problems like those. Some people use the Toyota branded fluid in these just because of price. You can buy 2 or 3 bottles of fluid for the price of one bottle of VW branded fluid that way.
For the transverse application, it's the DSG gearbox. Oddly enough, on the Arteon, VW chose the Aisin 8-speed automatic instead of a DSG.
I have had some people recommend Idemitsu TLS-LV for my Passat which also has an Aisin transmission. The fluid the VW dealer usually would sell for my car is G 055 540 A2. That fluid is not cheap at all either if you buy that one. It sells for $24.80. UG_Passat is right about the issues that these Aisin transmissions can have. Surely there must be a better transmission VW could have chosen? These would be very nice cars if they didn't have the transmission problems like those. Some people use the Toyota branded fluid in these just because of price. You can buy 2 or 3 bottles of fluid for the price of one bottle of VW branded fluid that way.
For the transverse application, it's the DSG gearbox. Oddly enough, on the Arteon, VW chose the Aisin 8-speed automatic instead of a DSG.
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted by Tikka
...Why use aftermarket additives at all? If the correct specification ATF is used I presume its chemistry is matched to the transmission. If it is improved by aftermarket additives then surely the specified ATF is not fit for purpose?
Tikka.
Good observation.
The question I have to ask is, do aftermarket additives really improve the ATF, or could they cause harm in the long run?
As I said before, if have have evidence or suspect varnishing in the internals of your tranny, then there is a possibility that the LubeGard Red esters can help clean in the short term. But again, there is nothing to cure a wear problem or fix a poorly maintained AT.
My main concern is that anything that is introduced into a formulated ATF is going to make changes in the various friction coefficients.
...Why use aftermarket additives at all? If the correct specification ATF is used I presume its chemistry is matched to the transmission. If it is improved by aftermarket additives then surely the specified ATF is not fit for purpose?
Tikka.
Good observation.
The question I have to ask is, do aftermarket additives really improve the ATF, or could they cause harm in the long run?
As I said before, if have have evidence or suspect varnishing in the internals of your tranny, then there is a possibility that the LubeGard Red esters can help clean in the short term. But again, there is nothing to cure a wear problem or fix a poorly maintained AT.
My main concern is that anything that is introduced into a formulated ATF is going to make changes in the various friction coefficients.
Last edited:
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted by demarpaint
...How do you feel about a "Multi Vehicle Transmission Fluid?" Eg: it will work in Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, etc. Thanks. I tend to shy away from them, although I did have good results with Maxlife in a Buick Century. Reading your quote seems to reinforce why, at least for me.
Quote
With the many different chemistries and potential mixes available, I think one can now see why Mutli-Vehicle fluids can be manufactured.
I think for warranty purposes, use a fluid that conforms to the vehicle's spec, either OEM or aftermarket. After that It seems one can use Multi-Vehicle fluids such as Valvoline MaxLife ATF or Amsoil ATL and it will work in most vehicles, especially those with Dexron/Mercon/LV type specs.
I do have a difficult time accepting that Multi-Vehicle ATFs can cover ATF+4 because of Chrysler's friction modification system, and Honda's DW-1 because of the weird chemistry in the Z/DW-1. See our discussion here regarding the analysis of
DW-1:
DW-1 VOA analysis
Also notice that Redline does not have a Multi-Vehicle ATF, rather, they have a separate formulation for each ATF type. They do say their D6 covers DW-1.
...How do you feel about a "Multi Vehicle Transmission Fluid?" Eg: it will work in Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, etc. Thanks. I tend to shy away from them, although I did have good results with Maxlife in a Buick Century. Reading your quote seems to reinforce why, at least for me.
Quote
With the many different chemistries and potential mixes available, I think one can now see why Mutli-Vehicle fluids can be manufactured.
I think for warranty purposes, use a fluid that conforms to the vehicle's spec, either OEM or aftermarket. After that It seems one can use Multi-Vehicle fluids such as Valvoline MaxLife ATF or Amsoil ATL and it will work in most vehicles, especially those with Dexron/Mercon/LV type specs.
I do have a difficult time accepting that Multi-Vehicle ATFs can cover ATF+4 because of Chrysler's friction modification system, and Honda's DW-1 because of the weird chemistry in the Z/DW-1. See our discussion here regarding the analysis of
DW-1:
DW-1 VOA analysis
Also notice that Redline does not have a Multi-Vehicle ATF, rather, they have a separate formulation for each ATF type. They do say their D6 covers DW-1.
Last edited:
Originally Posted by Tikka
Hi
Yes I suppose I am.
Why use aftermarket additives at all? If the correct specification ATF is used I presume its chemistry is matched to the transmission. If it is improved by aftermarket additives then surely the specified ATF is not fit for purpose?
Tikka.
And the "purpose" (or I would say, the unique situation or driving conditions) should objectively define the efficacy of a 3rd party additive or fluid manufacturers added additive pak, like use of a HiMi oil or a MaxLife ATF over the mfg spec fluid. Not every vehicle needs nor will benefit from the addtl additives over and above a mfg spec fluid, but some will.
Sometimes one size does not fit all.
Hi
Yes I suppose I am.
Why use aftermarket additives at all? If the correct specification ATF is used I presume its chemistry is matched to the transmission. If it is improved by aftermarket additives then surely the specified ATF is not fit for purpose?
Tikka.
And the "purpose" (or I would say, the unique situation or driving conditions) should objectively define the efficacy of a 3rd party additive or fluid manufacturers added additive pak, like use of a HiMi oil or a MaxLife ATF over the mfg spec fluid. Not every vehicle needs nor will benefit from the addtl additives over and above a mfg spec fluid, but some will.
Sometimes one size does not fit all.
Last edited:
Originally Posted by MolaKule
Originally Posted by demarpaint
...How do you feel about a "Multi Vehicle Transmission Fluid?" Eg: it will work in Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, etc. Thanks. I tend to shy away from them, although I did have good results with Maxlife in a Buick Century. Reading your quote seems to reinforce why, at least for me.
Quote
With the many different chemistries and potential mixes available, I think one can now see why Mutli-Vehicle fluids can be manufactured.
I think for warranty purposes, use a fluid that conforms to the vehicle's spec, either OEM or aftermarket. After that It seems one can use Multi-Vehicle fluids such as Valvoline MaxLife ATF or Amsoil ATL and it will work in most vehicles, especially those with Dexron/Mercon/LV type specs.
I do have a difficult time accepting that Multi-Vehicle ATFs can cover ATF+4 because of Chrysler's friction modification system, and Honda's DW-1 because of the weird chemistry in the Z/DW-1. See our discussion here regarding the analysis of
DW-1:
DW-1 VOA analysis
Also notice that Redline does not have a Multi-Vehicle ATF, rather, they have a separate formulation for each ATF type. They do say their D6 covers DW-1.
Thanks for the info. IMO it might be best to stick with the mfg. recommended fluid the entire life of the vehicle. I just can't fathom a one size can possibly fit all approach. As I mentioned I had good luck with MaxLife in an old Buick, but I'd never use it in either of my ATF+4 Jeep applications. Transmissions aren't cheap.
Originally Posted by demarpaint
...How do you feel about a "Multi Vehicle Transmission Fluid?" Eg: it will work in Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, etc. Thanks. I tend to shy away from them, although I did have good results with Maxlife in a Buick Century. Reading your quote seems to reinforce why, at least for me.
Quote
With the many different chemistries and potential mixes available, I think one can now see why Mutli-Vehicle fluids can be manufactured.
I think for warranty purposes, use a fluid that conforms to the vehicle's spec, either OEM or aftermarket. After that It seems one can use Multi-Vehicle fluids such as Valvoline MaxLife ATF or Amsoil ATL and it will work in most vehicles, especially those with Dexron/Mercon/LV type specs.
I do have a difficult time accepting that Multi-Vehicle ATFs can cover ATF+4 because of Chrysler's friction modification system, and Honda's DW-1 because of the weird chemistry in the Z/DW-1. See our discussion here regarding the analysis of
DW-1:
DW-1 VOA analysis
Also notice that Redline does not have a Multi-Vehicle ATF, rather, they have a separate formulation for each ATF type. They do say their D6 covers DW-1.
Thanks for the info. IMO it might be best to stick with the mfg. recommended fluid the entire life of the vehicle. I just can't fathom a one size can possibly fit all approach. As I mentioned I had good luck with MaxLife in an old Buick, but I'd never use it in either of my ATF+4 Jeep applications. Transmissions aren't cheap.
Originally Posted by demarpaint
Originally Posted by MolaKule
Originally Posted by demarpaint
...How do you feel about a "Multi Vehicle Transmission Fluid?" Eg: it will work in Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, etc. Thanks. I tend to shy away from them, although I did have good results with Maxlife in a Buick Century. Reading your quote seems to reinforce why, at least for me.
Quote
With the many different chemistries and potential mixes available, I think one can now see why Mutli-Vehicle fluids can be manufactured.
I think for warranty purposes, use a fluid that conforms to the vehicle's spec, either OEM or aftermarket. After that It seems one can use Multi-Vehicle fluids such as Valvoline MaxLife ATF or Amsoil ATL and it will work in most vehicles, especially those with Dexron/Mercon/LV type specs.
I do have a difficult time accepting that Multi-Vehicle ATFs can cover ATF+4 because of Chrysler's friction modification system, and Honda's DW-1 because of the weird chemistry in the Z/DW-1. See our discussion here regarding the analysis of
DW-1:
DW-1 VOA analysis
Also notice that Redline does not have a Multi-Vehicle ATF, rather, they have a separate formulation for each ATF type. They do say their D6 covers DW-1.
Thanks for the info. IMO it might be best to stick with the mfg. recommended fluid the entire life of the vehicle. I just can't fathom a one size can possibly fit all approach. As I mentioned I had good luck with MaxLife in an old Buick, but I'd never use it in either of my ATF+4 Jeep applications. Transmissions aren't cheap.
Hi
I have often wondered just how interchangeable ATF is between different transmissions. A prime example is my 2008 Grand Cherokee Diesel. A German manufactured Mercedes transmission but yet the Jeep recommended fluid is ATF+4.
Originally Posted by MolaKule
Originally Posted by demarpaint
...How do you feel about a "Multi Vehicle Transmission Fluid?" Eg: it will work in Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, etc. Thanks. I tend to shy away from them, although I did have good results with Maxlife in a Buick Century. Reading your quote seems to reinforce why, at least for me.
Quote
With the many different chemistries and potential mixes available, I think one can now see why Mutli-Vehicle fluids can be manufactured.
I think for warranty purposes, use a fluid that conforms to the vehicle's spec, either OEM or aftermarket. After that It seems one can use Multi-Vehicle fluids such as Valvoline MaxLife ATF or Amsoil ATL and it will work in most vehicles, especially those with Dexron/Mercon/LV type specs.
I do have a difficult time accepting that Multi-Vehicle ATFs can cover ATF+4 because of Chrysler's friction modification system, and Honda's DW-1 because of the weird chemistry in the Z/DW-1. See our discussion here regarding the analysis of
DW-1:
DW-1 VOA analysis
Also notice that Redline does not have a Multi-Vehicle ATF, rather, they have a separate formulation for each ATF type. They do say their D6 covers DW-1.
Thanks for the info. IMO it might be best to stick with the mfg. recommended fluid the entire life of the vehicle. I just can't fathom a one size can possibly fit all approach. As I mentioned I had good luck with MaxLife in an old Buick, but I'd never use it in either of my ATF+4 Jeep applications. Transmissions aren't cheap.
Hi
I have often wondered just how interchangeable ATF is between different transmissions. A prime example is my 2008 Grand Cherokee Diesel. A German manufactured Mercedes transmission but yet the Jeep recommended fluid is ATF+4.
Originally Posted by Tikka
Hi
I have often wondered just how interchangeable ATF is between different transmissions. A prime example is my 2008 Grand Cherokee Diesel. A German manufactured Mercedes transmission but yet the Jeep recommended fluid is ATF+4.
NAG1 aka WA 580? If so it's the same transmission that my 2016 Rubicon has. I use ATF+4 which is what it calls for, I don't second guess the spec. I wouldn't chance a Multi-Vehicle formula in it.
Hi
I have often wondered just how interchangeable ATF is between different transmissions. A prime example is my 2008 Grand Cherokee Diesel. A German manufactured Mercedes transmission but yet the Jeep recommended fluid is ATF+4.
NAG1 aka WA 580? If so it's the same transmission that my 2016 Rubicon has. I use ATF+4 which is what it calls for, I don't second guess the spec. I wouldn't chance a Multi-Vehicle formula in it.
Originally Posted by demarpaint
Originally Posted by Tikka
Hi
I have often wondered just how interchangeable ATF is between different transmissions. A prime example is my 2008 Grand Cherokee Diesel. A German manufactured Mercedes transmission but yet the Jeep recommended fluid is ATF+4.
NAG1 aka WA 580? If so it's the same transmission that my 2016 Rubicon has. I use ATF+4 which is what it calls for, I don't second guess the spec. I wouldn't chance a Multi-Vehicle formula in it.
Hi
The WA580 is/was made in Indiana based on the Merc 722.6 so I can understand if subtle changes may have been made to accommodate ATF+4. The Transmission in my jeep Diesel is a made in Germany Merc transmission. Jeep spec is ATF+4. Same engine and transmission in a Dodge Sprinter requires Mopar's version of Merc spec 236.12.
This suggests to me as a layman that ATF+4 and Merc spec are interchangeable.
I am always happy to be corrected though. Every day is a school day
Originally Posted by Tikka
Hi
I have often wondered just how interchangeable ATF is between different transmissions. A prime example is my 2008 Grand Cherokee Diesel. A German manufactured Mercedes transmission but yet the Jeep recommended fluid is ATF+4.
NAG1 aka WA 580? If so it's the same transmission that my 2016 Rubicon has. I use ATF+4 which is what it calls for, I don't second guess the spec. I wouldn't chance a Multi-Vehicle formula in it.
Hi
The WA580 is/was made in Indiana based on the Merc 722.6 so I can understand if subtle changes may have been made to accommodate ATF+4. The Transmission in my jeep Diesel is a made in Germany Merc transmission. Jeep spec is ATF+4. Same engine and transmission in a Dodge Sprinter requires Mopar's version of Merc spec 236.12.
This suggests to me as a layman that ATF+4 and Merc spec are interchangeable.
I am always happy to be corrected though. Every day is a school day
Should of given the back story.
around 50,000 miles had a drain/refill/ filter change with Pentosin ATF1 with LG Platinum.
at 90,000 miles, almost time for another one. the local shop uses Liqui Moly Top Tec ATF 1200. Maybe I'll just skip the LG until I do the 3rd change.
I noticed Liqui Moly has their own additive also
https://products.liqui-moly.com/additives/atf-additive.html
around 50,000 miles had a drain/refill/ filter change with Pentosin ATF1 with LG Platinum.
at 90,000 miles, almost time for another one. the local shop uses Liqui Moly Top Tec ATF 1200. Maybe I'll just skip the LG until I do the 3rd change.
I noticed Liqui Moly has their own additive also
https://products.liqui-moly.com/additives/atf-additive.html
Originally Posted by MolaKule
Originally Posted by sloinker
...I wonder if highly friction modified fluids just normally contain ester(s) or their equivalent nowadays, negating the need for product like LubeGard?
I'll post this again and note the highlighted sentences:
Originally Posted by Molakule
ATF if a special hydraulic oil for the following purposes:
Lubrication for gears.
Cooling and heat transfer.
Transmitting torque via the Torque Converter.
Friction modification for clutch packs, bands, Torque Converter Clutch.
One of its more important duties of ATF is to make sure the fluid's coefficient of friction is matched to the friction materials inside the tranny. I.e., to ensure the proper static and dynamic coefficients of friction during engagement/disengagement.
In the early days of AT's the clutch material was composed of cellulose material with cotton and other soft materials in a phenolic resin binder. Today, hybrid materials are used.
Hybrid (or composite) materials are typically manufactured using a process similar to that used for paper-based materials, but using carbon fibers in combination with organic or synthetic fibers such as Kevlar and Aramid fibers. So Friction Materials may include cellulose, carbon fiber, Aramids, fiberglass, or a combination of materials (composites). Today, composites are the norm.
Many of the clutch materials from various manufacturers are close in terms of static and dynamic friction coefficients.
The clutch disc material of Automatic Transmissions, and other wet clutch applications, are made of porous friction materials which are bonded to steel core plates.
Note: Sintered metal composites may be found in HDD applications.
This material must exhibit:
1.) Mu(o), low speed dynamic coefficient; affected by friction material ingredients and ATF additives adsorption
2.) Mu(i), initial dynamic coefficient at high speed; affected by hydrodynamic effects/porosity/compression/roughness.
When an additive company tests its ATF additive package, many transmissions are run through the SAE2 and other friction test machines (JASO M349-98, R-H Friction Apparatus, ZF GK Test Bench, Low Velocity Friction Apparatus, etc) to determine if the Friction Modifier set is appropriate.
The friction characteristics (Mu verses Velocity) of the clutch/fluid system are carefully monitored for each separate transmission and fluid formulation.
Mu is coefficient of friction plotted on the vertical axis, V is the relative speed of rotating components plotted on the horizontal axis. Mu(v) then is the resulting curve of the frictional characteristics of the clutch/fluid system.
The appropriate FM additive type and levels are then determined for the complete additive package.
A sample of the ATF Friction Modifiers are shown below:
fatty phosphites, fatty acid amides, fatty epoxides, borated fatty epoxides, fatty amines, glycerol esters, borated glycerol esters, alkoxylated fatty amines, and borated alkoxylated fatty amines, metal salts of fatty acids, sulfurized olefins, fatty imidazolines, non-hydroxyl fatty tertiary amines, and any mixtures of the above.
The exact composition of and specific chemistry (molecular structure) of the Friction Modifier(s) are closely guarded secrets.
With the many different chemistries and potential mixes available, I think one can now see why Mutli-Vehicle fluids can be manufactured.
Ford Type "F" ATF is a fluid with very low levels of friction modification and has a Mu(V) curve separate and apart from either the Dexron Series or the Chrysler ATF+ series.
Ford Type "F" ATF is often used today in racing transmissions such as the PowerGlide and TH400 Turbohydramatics because of the positive lockup, IE, little to no slip in the clutch packs during engagement.
Chrysler ATF+ fluids are on the other end of the spectrum and exhibit a completely different Mu(V) characteristic. The ATF+ fluids are highly friction modified.
For a more Technical Study on ATs and heat transfer one can go to:
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/automatic-transmissions-study/
What I am saying is, friction modification for a specific ATF involves a very complicated and specific chemical matrix to obtain the needed Mu(v), and the ester type can affect friction coefficients and has to be considered as to how it, the base oils, and other additives affect the overall friction properties.
Thanks for posting that. So in a situation like using a multi vehicle ATF like MaxLife in lieu of the OE spec fluid, is it conceivable that while the tranny may run on it, it (the tranny) is not running at peak/optimal because the replacement fluid is not as well matched as the OE fluid? In general I'm a believer in following the mfgs spec/recommendations since they engineered the darn thing (or in the case of tranny's they work closely with a tranny mfg) and know what works best. I just thought trans fluid was one of those things you could get away with using a 3rd party fluid as long as it said "suitable". Dunno... but I'd be interested in your thoughts.
(I guess what I'm asking is just because I can, does it mean I should when it comes to using a multi vehicle atf v. the (more expensive) OE spec fluid)
Originally Posted by sloinker
...I wonder if highly friction modified fluids just normally contain ester(s) or their equivalent nowadays, negating the need for product like LubeGard?
I'll post this again and note the highlighted sentences:
Originally Posted by Molakule
ATF if a special hydraulic oil for the following purposes:
Lubrication for gears.
Cooling and heat transfer.
Transmitting torque via the Torque Converter.
Friction modification for clutch packs, bands, Torque Converter Clutch.
One of its more important duties of ATF is to make sure the fluid's coefficient of friction is matched to the friction materials inside the tranny. I.e., to ensure the proper static and dynamic coefficients of friction during engagement/disengagement.
In the early days of AT's the clutch material was composed of cellulose material with cotton and other soft materials in a phenolic resin binder. Today, hybrid materials are used.
Hybrid (or composite) materials are typically manufactured using a process similar to that used for paper-based materials, but using carbon fibers in combination with organic or synthetic fibers such as Kevlar and Aramid fibers. So Friction Materials may include cellulose, carbon fiber, Aramids, fiberglass, or a combination of materials (composites). Today, composites are the norm.
Many of the clutch materials from various manufacturers are close in terms of static and dynamic friction coefficients.
The clutch disc material of Automatic Transmissions, and other wet clutch applications, are made of porous friction materials which are bonded to steel core plates.
Note: Sintered metal composites may be found in HDD applications.
This material must exhibit:
1.) Mu(o), low speed dynamic coefficient; affected by friction material ingredients and ATF additives adsorption
2.) Mu(i), initial dynamic coefficient at high speed; affected by hydrodynamic effects/porosity/compression/roughness.
When an additive company tests its ATF additive package, many transmissions are run through the SAE2 and other friction test machines (JASO M349-98, R-H Friction Apparatus, ZF GK Test Bench, Low Velocity Friction Apparatus, etc) to determine if the Friction Modifier set is appropriate.
The friction characteristics (Mu verses Velocity) of the clutch/fluid system are carefully monitored for each separate transmission and fluid formulation.
Mu is coefficient of friction plotted on the vertical axis, V is the relative speed of rotating components plotted on the horizontal axis. Mu(v) then is the resulting curve of the frictional characteristics of the clutch/fluid system.
The appropriate FM additive type and levels are then determined for the complete additive package.
A sample of the ATF Friction Modifiers are shown below:
fatty phosphites, fatty acid amides, fatty epoxides, borated fatty epoxides, fatty amines, glycerol esters, borated glycerol esters, alkoxylated fatty amines, and borated alkoxylated fatty amines, metal salts of fatty acids, sulfurized olefins, fatty imidazolines, non-hydroxyl fatty tertiary amines, and any mixtures of the above.
The exact composition of and specific chemistry (molecular structure) of the Friction Modifier(s) are closely guarded secrets.
With the many different chemistries and potential mixes available, I think one can now see why Mutli-Vehicle fluids can be manufactured.
Ford Type "F" ATF is a fluid with very low levels of friction modification and has a Mu(V) curve separate and apart from either the Dexron Series or the Chrysler ATF+ series.
Ford Type "F" ATF is often used today in racing transmissions such as the PowerGlide and TH400 Turbohydramatics because of the positive lockup, IE, little to no slip in the clutch packs during engagement.
Chrysler ATF+ fluids are on the other end of the spectrum and exhibit a completely different Mu(V) characteristic. The ATF+ fluids are highly friction modified.
For a more Technical Study on ATs and heat transfer one can go to:
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/automatic-transmissions-study/
What I am saying is, friction modification for a specific ATF involves a very complicated and specific chemical matrix to obtain the needed Mu(v), and the ester type can affect friction coefficients and has to be considered as to how it, the base oils, and other additives affect the overall friction properties.
Thanks for posting that. So in a situation like using a multi vehicle ATF like MaxLife in lieu of the OE spec fluid, is it conceivable that while the tranny may run on it, it (the tranny) is not running at peak/optimal because the replacement fluid is not as well matched as the OE fluid? In general I'm a believer in following the mfgs spec/recommendations since they engineered the darn thing (or in the case of tranny's they work closely with a tranny mfg) and know what works best. I just thought trans fluid was one of those things you could get away with using a 3rd party fluid as long as it said "suitable". Dunno... but I'd be interested in your thoughts.
(I guess what I'm asking is just because I can, does it mean I should when it comes to using a multi vehicle atf v. the (more expensive) OE spec fluid)
Last edited:
Deleted. Straying off topic from the Lubegard topic.
To me, Lubegard Red was to enhance durability, cleaning, and heat resistance of older conventional fluids that maybe were lacking in quality. I find it hard to believe that they improve a modern synthetic fluid. It would be like installing an additive to Mobil 1 or PP oil.
To me, Lubegard Red was to enhance durability, cleaning, and heat resistance of older conventional fluids that maybe were lacking in quality. I find it hard to believe that they improve a modern synthetic fluid. It would be like installing an additive to Mobil 1 or PP oil.
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