Looking at a Hybrids as the main Family Hauler

[pandus13]

Originally Posted By: nthach

Also, rumor out of Japan says the next Prius V will have AWD like the RAV4 Hybrid/NXh and HiHy/RXh. I think AWD is an option on the Prius alpha(which is the JDM version of the V). However, Toyota might also cannibalize RAV4 Hybrid sales doing that as well - but really a AWD Prius will be more suited to compete against the VW Golf Alltrack/A3 and the Impreza. I'm also sure a few cabbies and Uber drivers will want a AWD hybrid that isn't an SUV or luxury sedan.

The mini-minivan/Wagon has not catch much in the last decade: see MAzda5, Prius v sales, GSW, AllTrack, the new Buick TourX.... Also like you said, they will not cannibalize the more profitable Rav4 Hybrid sales....

 

[nthach]

Originally Posted By: pandus13

Originally Posted By: nthach

Also, rumor out of Japan says the next Prius V will have AWD like the RAV4 Hybrid/NXh and HiHy/RXh. I think AWD is an option on the Prius alpha(which is the JDM version of the V). However, Toyota might also cannibalize RAV4 Hybrid sales doing that as well - but really a AWD Prius will be more suited to compete against the VW Golf Alltrack/A3 and the Impreza. I'm also sure a few cabbies and Uber drivers will want a AWD hybrid that isn't an SUV or luxury sedan.

The mini-minivan/Wagon has not catch much in the last decade: see MAzda5, Prius v sales, GSW, AllTrack, the new Buick TourX.... Also like you said, they will not cannibalize the more profitable Rav4 Hybrid sales....

Only Subaru is seeing success with wagons - for all intents and purposes the Outback is a wagon and not an SUV, and as much as Subaru hates to say it, the Impreza/Crosstrek is a wagon. Mercedes is still selling the E-Class Wagon and BMW also has the 3 Series wagon, but the GLE/ML and X3 still outsells them.

 

[pandus13]

Originally Posted By: nthach

Only Subaru is seeing success with wagons - for all intents and purposes the Outback is a wagon and not an SUV,

I saw some pictures of a lowered and different wheels on the current Outback that made for a really nice large wagon...

Originally Posted By: nthach

and as much as Subaru hates to say it, the Impreza/Crosstrek is a wagon.

It resembles to me as a much nicer Caliber :-P FutureDOC, sorry for the off-topic, but wagons/hatches pull the nice feelings from us BITOGearheads....

 

[oil_film_movies]

Consider the latest NEW Nissan Leaf. Electric. As long as she doesn't drive over about 140 miles per day, its excellent and cheaper than pumping gas. Also, you get a $7,500 federal tax credit. Good lease deals will include the 7500 tax thing in the acquisition cost. If that doesn't fly, consider the latest Honda Accord Hybrid, as its got what I consider to be the best, optimal hybrid powertrain of any offered out there. No torque converters, no transmission (well, a 1-speed fixed spur gear and diff), no planetary gearset, and only 1 lone clutch. Thats elegant, and it works very well on long trips or short trips. 2018 Leaf is no longer fug-ugly:

 

[PandaBear]

No minivan? too bad. My Prius V is "just right" in size and convenience, but expect only 40mpg instead of 45-55. Nothing will get that with the older gen hybrid like the V. I personally recommend this to small practical family not looking to keep up with the Jones. You can probably get a new leftover for around $23k before TTL like I did. She is smart to avoid the i3, the rear seat is tucked in and when your kid goes into a rear facing car seat you cannot get him or her out, especially if both of them are rear facing. Forcing them to go front facing early is a no-no to me for safety reason. Beside, I hate that e-pedal brake junk. Mid/large hybrid sedan may work very well if you don't need the trunk space. I'd stay away from EV for the primary family hauler, because telling the kids they cannot go somewhere because they are out of range sucks, and I'm not paying big money for a Tesla X.

 

[oil_film_movies]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear

My Prius V is "just right" in size and convenience, but expect only 40mpg instead of 45-55.

Interesting, I never checked Fuelly.com (fleet average) on the PriusV, and you're exactly right. 40 MPG average. I thought it would be better. ... Wow, the PriusV is very similar in chassis size to my '15 Ford C-Max, and they both get the same 40 MPG average on fuelly. Yet, the C-Max has bigger wheels/tires, is much faster, and handles/steers better..... Ford actually bettered the vaunted Synergy Drive in real-world MPG averages, not bad. I'm surprised about this. Interesting how some MPG's cluster together: Last 2 or 3 model years of the following on fuelly.com: Toyota Prius 51 MPG (not the "V" model, and only 2017-2018; earlier years getting 45 MPG) Hyundai Ioniq 50 MPG Kia Niro 44 MPG Honda Accord Hybrid: 42 MPG Ford Fusion Hybrid: 41 MPG Toyota Camry Hybrid: 41 MPG (Note: 2018 model only, much better than any previous) Chevy Malibu Hybrid: 41 MPG Ford C-Max Hybrid: 40 MPG Toyota PriusV Hybrid: 40 MPG Toyota RAV4 Hybrid: 31 MPG EPA MPG FTP-cycle tests are one thing, but this actual real-world fleet average over many users & many miles is pretty good to get to the truth. This is what folks are actually getting. Still puzzling a bit to me, since my '15 C-Max gets 44 MPG long-term average, way beating the fuelly "People's MPG Average" of 40 MPG, so I think the standard deviation could be large for Hybrids! Accord Hybrid is my favorite. Designed to be simpler yet effective, smarter.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies

If that doesn't fly, consider the latest Honda Accord Hybrid, as its got what I consider to be the best, optimal hybrid powertrain of any offered out there. No torque converters, no transmission (well, a 1-speed fixed spur gear and diff), no planetary gearset, and only 1 lone clutch. Thats elegant, and it works very well on long trips or short trips.

I can't recommend my HAH enough. The trunk size is compromised - perhaps it is better in the new model, but I do prefer the styling of mine. Lexus RX hybrid used to be able to offer 30 mpg, not sure if the current one does. Acura MDX hybrid looks nice but is only 26-27 mpg. Not sure about Avalon hybrid mpgs. If a vehicle is primarily a highway cruiser, I'd be less interested in hybrids, more so in diesels. For mixed or town use, you truly can't beat them.

 

[FutureDoc]

Ok, I sent her out test driving last night by herself. I did "dad duty" with daycare pickup/dinner, etc and let her have her own evening. Here is the take: she is now torn. She wants 50+MPG still, but felt "small" in the Ioniq. She did not like the ride height of the Hybrid. Getting back into her Subaru felt great, up-high, viability, etc. The Ioniq she drove felt "exactly how she thought it would feel". So basically I can say that she does not have an emotional attachment as of last night. However she wants to test car seats this weekend. Overall, she thought acceleration was fine (but then again, the Outback is a mid 9-second vehicle too), brakes were good, it was quiet (not a highway test-drive), and the ride was good. So "good" and she said she could definitely do it but no emotional "wow" attachment. Getting back into the Subaru let her know how twitchy the throttle is at initiation. I think she need to go look at the Niro again. Now the joke of the evening was that Ford was killing all of the small cars. I told her that she is the reason. "I want to sit up high". Ford's Hybrid (CMax, and my former Escape Hybrid in the fleet) always did better than expected. I think that it is designed/reported towards heavy-pedal users rather than hyper milers, so they are not penalized as much with harder acceleration (you don't have to flog it as much. Makes sense with fuelly. Thus in the motor pool, they were respectable MPGers. Until we have an airline-like system with every "zero" number style system tracking (every ticket ending in 0 is tracked) and reporting fuel economy, the real-world system will be tough. I am not a fan of CAFE's system (why my dissertation critiqued it) but you got to draw the line somewhere. So we are back in the decision hinter-land. I still think she wants a hybrid but it has moved to "lets go" to "lets see" Now, it looks like she is being difficult wanting conflicting metrics. However, I think she is lean more and more towards plug-in capacity (We have truly free Lvl 2 access at both of our work locations). Her thing is that if she does give up the Outback, she wants a huge MPG benefit. 1. MPG & Plug-in or Ride Height 2. Cargo/Hatchback 3. Carselts, etc 4. Sunroof, heated seats

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies

Originally Posted By: PandaBear

My Prius V is "just right" in size and convenience, but expect only 40mpg instead of 45-55.

Interesting, I never checked Fuelly.com (fleet average) on the PriusV, and you're exactly right. 40 MPG average. I thought it would be better. ... Wow, the PriusV is very similar in chassis size to my '15 Ford C-Max, and they both get the same 40 MPG average on fuelly. Yet, the C-Max has bigger wheels/tires, is much faster, and handles/steers better..... Ford actually bettered the vaunted Synergy Drive in real-world MPG averages, not bad. I'm surprised about this. Interesting how some MPG's cluster together: Last 2 or 3 model years of the following on fuelly.com: Toyota Prius 51 MPG (not the "V" model, and only 2017-2018; earlier years getting 45 MPG) Hyundai Ioniq 50 MPG Kia Niro 44 MPG Honda Accord Hybrid: 42 MPG Ford Fusion Hybrid: 41 MPG Toyota Camry Hybrid: 41 MPG (Note: 2018 model only, much better than any previous) Chevy Malibu Hybrid: 41 MPG Ford C-Max Hybrid: 40 MPG Toyota PriusV Hybrid: 40 MPG Toyota RAV4 Hybrid: 31 MPG EPA MPG FTP-cycle tests are one thing, but this actual real-world fleet average over many users & many miles is pretty good to get to the truth. This is what folks are actually getting. Still puzzling a bit to me, since my '15 C-Max gets 44 MPG long-term average, way beating the fuelly "People's MPG Average" of 40 MPG, so I think the standard deviation could be large for Hybrids! Accord Hybrid is my favorite. Designed to be simpler yet effective, smarter.

I looked hard on the CMAX as well, and in the end I trust the reliability of the Prius power train better, and the possibility of getting a leftover for a good deal (like, $5k off MSRP). If I buy MSRP it may be a coin toss which one I get.

 

[FutureDoc]

Well, it looks like she is keeping the Outback, for now. That being said, the Ioniq handled the carseats BETTER than the Outback and front/rear passengers had more usable leg/personal space. The Ioniq handled the BOB running stroller, kids bike, and the 55lb hound dog. We lost a inch here/there, but overall, it was just as practical for our needs as the Outback. I found the seats to be better for me too. I left the dealership, [/i]Sold![i] Almost. Fantastic. She was not sold. The dealer just did not seem motivated to sell a left-over 2017 and I was not going to take a two-year depreciation hit. Also, we both did not want a black-on-black vehicle. They had only 4 identical black-on-black model trims. So that was the two-strikes and we are out moment. If it was more of a motivated seller, "maybe" but we were not going to compromise on a "ok/meh" deal. She wanted a lighter interior, a non-black car, and if we were going to wait, then she would wait for the plug-in. So that is where we landed. Holding tight for now. However, she did put out an interesting idea... maybe wait a couple of years and then I would add another vehicle for "family trip" needs (I am building a car collection one vehicle at a time). Hyundai's Genesis Brand is launching the G70 and there will be a manual option for the 4-pot. We discussed that....