Leave factory fill in? No Thanks

[ARCOgraphite]

So VW wants me to go 10,000.0 miles before OC #!1

How do I convince them to change it say at 3500 miles?

Being It's their car. Leased. Turbo 1.4L D.I.


Bailes - Only thing I wouldn't have dumped the Gear oil yet. Maybe at the 3rd OC Then not much ever again untill 60K unless it's sheared to death - like subcompact Honda MT oil is toast almost yearly.

 

[josephp732]

I would install a good magnetic drain plug - I know it does help with any nonferrous metals but for $20USD it's cheap insurance for any steel floating around in the engine.
I always install one in my new vehicles and I am always a bit surprised with what's on the plug for the first three oil (5k OCI) changes or so.
Usually after 20k miles I see very little material on the magnet.
Looks like you drain plug is 16x150, in the US Gold Plug has this 16x200 plug that seems like a good fit, as it would just be 50mm longer.
https://goldplug.com/shop/sp16/

 

[kstanf150]

OP, looks like you did the correct thing in changing it early.
As someone else mentioned another drain and fill soon would be peace of mind for you

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted by ekpolk
Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
thastinger
My first OC in my GDI will be at roughly 3.2K. Engines are digitally mastered these days. The tolerances are much more precise than yesteryear.
Buy hey, if you want to waste money on the side of unnecessary precaution, go right ahead and change it ridiculously early.


That's true regarding modern engine build quality, but this doesn't take into account when the oil went into the engine. I took delivery of my 2018 car in January 2019, and according to the attached sticker, the car was already twelve months old, having been built in January 2018. The maintenance schedule says 12 months is the maximum change interval by time. Being 99.9999% sure that the dealer didn't change it out of the goodness of their hearts, I changed changed it myself. Now I know both the specific product and the install date with 100% certainty. This argument goes back and forth, here and elsewhere, but rarely mentioned is anyone checking to see how long that initial fill has actually been in the engine.

And yes, while it's true that modern engines are built very well, to very fine tolerance levels, this one's surely got some stuff in the oil that I'd want out. Moreover, the early look alerts the owner to keep an eye on what might be an early problem. Sometimes ignorance ISN'T bliss. . .

Factory fill or rebuilt is supposed to be a huge exception. It's a clean slate and extremely low mileage on delivery to the initial customer.

Anyone know what maintenance minders do?

 

[UncleDave]

There is a case for leaving it in - Honda wants you to keep the FF in till the maintenance minder says to dump - then keep the factory filter in for a second run.

The rationale being the FF is enriched by all the moly in the assembly grease and that aids break-in. The dealers will not change it out early.

I towed an extensive amount on the FF so I dropped a mag on the filter day 1 and changed it out the lube and filter at a modest interval 7K vs 10.

Glad I did - the factory filter is a rock catcher, and there was a lot of metal and random debris that looked like sand but had the property of acetate.


UD

 

[josephp732]

Actually this might be the best magnetic plug for your application: https://goldplug.com/shop/ap10/

Your 16x150 plug

Gold Plug 16x150 plug

 

[kaesees]

Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
thastinger
My first OC in my GDI will be at roughly 3.2K. Engines are digitally mastered these days. The tolerances are much more precise than yesteryear.
Buy hey, if you want to waste money on the side of unnecessary precaution, go right ahead and change it ridiculously early.


I followed the manufacturer's recommendations on my '18 Crosstrek and changed at 6k. I also followed the manufacturer's recommendations for the first 1,000 miles of driving. The engine is smooth and feels good in the power band and I get much better fuel economy than the EPA ratings. The oil from the first change didn't have much by the way of visible metal in it, and the UOAs from the first and second OCIs came back great. The factory fill had absurd levels of moly (I've heard speculation it's from assembly grease being left in) and ZDDP and tons of boron, I assume they wanted all that stuff in there for a reason. The OEM oil filter has a high bypass pressure, so there should be few/no bypass events that would let larger metals that would normally be caught by the filter in to the cylinder, though this might not be the case for a car where the filter has a lower bypass pressure and the user redlines the engine going up hills regularly.

It's everyone's choice whether to dump the factory fill early. The OP made his choice one way and he's glad he did so, while I'm glad I chose the other way; at the end of the day it looks like we both have engines in good working order.

 

[gathermewool]

I find it interesting how trends on short-first-intervals ebb and flow on this site. For a long time, it was known that changing out the factory-fill oil on a name-brand Make of vehicle was a waste and wasn't promoted here. Recently, whether something has changed or not, there are a lot more people who tout a super early first change.

I'm in the camp of not changing early.

Two things:

1. Changing early to get a visual of engine brake-in health: very few people collect the first change in a pan wherein they can actually see what's in the oil. I know I don't. Even fewer people cut their filters open. I used to (and still have the "pipe-cutter" style filter cutter), but got bored of seeing nothing in any of my filters, even FF.

2. Practicality: for me, I've run extended intervals on my STI (> 7.5k miles), run multiple OFI's using the same filter (longest being >20k miles using a FU on my previous Civic), and used everything from the cheapest, appropriately-spec'd oils to the most expensive (OTS).

None of the cars I've purchased new and broken in have had any oil consumption or negative oil-related issues...

//

OTHERS, have had issues. If I had experienced what the OP posted in any of my vehicles, my opinion and past practices would likely be completely different.

So, while we can't prove that early OCI is wasteful, we do have A LOT of data showing that it's not necessary, in that there are millions of cars out there that range from overly-maintained to barely maintained that live a long life and are junked due to an accident, rust, or nickle-and-dime CEL trouble-shooting, not due to an oil-related failure.

 

[Schmoe]

Honda has been telling us to leave factory fill in until it's due for a change according to the OLM for decades. I've never had a problem will all of the 6 different Honda's I've owned in the past. But, it's not from France....

 

[Propflux01]

Originally Posted by Bailes1992


I'd rather spend £25 on an oil change to get all that brass and steel out of the oil than leave it in for another 10 months or 11,000miles as specified by the manufacturer. .

There is no way I'd let a 3cyl with a turbo go 11000 miles between changes. I don't care what oil it's using!

 

[Triple_Se7en]

Originally Posted by kaesees
Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
thastinger
My first OC in my GDI will be at roughly 3.2K. Engines are digitally mastered these days. The tolerances are much more precise than yesteryear.
Buy hey, if you want to waste money on the side of unnecessary precaution, go right ahead and change it ridiculously early.


I followed the manufacturer's recommendations on my '18 Crosstrek and changed at 6k. I also followed the manufacturer's recommendations for the first 1,000 miles of driving. The engine is smooth and feels good in the power band and I get much better fuel economy than the EPA ratings. The oil from the first change didn't have much by the way of visible metal in it, and the UOAs from the first and second OCIs came back great. The factory fill had absurd levels of moly (I've heard speculation it's from assembly grease being left in) and ZDDP and tons of boron, I assume they wanted all that stuff in there for a reason. The OEM oil filter has a high bypass pressure, so there should be few/no bypass events that would let larger metals that would normally be caught by the filter in to the cylinder, though this might not be the case for a car where the filter has a lower bypass pressure and the user redlines the engine going up hills regularly.

It's everyone's choice whether to dump the factory fill early. The OP made his choice one way and he's glad he did so, while I'm glad I chose the other way; at the end of the day it looks like we both have engines in good working order.


Exactly correct. Besides, the factory fill oil is most times 2-3 times as strong as what you are replacing it with during the 2nd OCI.
To all the people here in this thread worried about metal shavings and such, there's very little of that anymore.
These engines today are not your dad's engines. We now live in the Digital Computers Age. But go ahead, waste $25.......

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted by y_p_w
. . . Factory fill or rebuilt is supposed to be a huge exception. It's a clean slate and extremely low mileage on delivery to the initial customer.
True, but nobody seems to want to factor in time. Granted, it shouldn't be a major factor in most, quickly delivered new cars, but some aren't.

Originally Posted by y_p_w
Anyone know what maintenance minders do?

Unfortunately, different things from different makers. The Toyota "Maintenance Required" light is a mere mile counter, nothing more. Frankly, that's not very impressive in 2019.

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Originally Posted by kaesees
. . .

It's everyone's choice whether to dump the factory fill early. The OP made his choice one way and he's glad he did so, while I'm glad I chose the other way; at the end of the day it looks like we both have engines in good working order.


Exactly correct. Besides, the factory fill oil is most times 2-3 times as strong as what you are replacing it with during the 2nd OCI.
To all the people here in this thread worried about metal shavings and such, there's very little of that anymore.
These engines today are not your dad's engines. We now live in the Digital Computers Age. But go ahead, waste $25.......


You say, "exactly correct" to the guy who acknowledges that, "it's everyone's choice whether to dump the factory fill early." And then disparage those who do. Not very consistent. . .

Yes, we all understand that it's 2019, and manufacturing has advanced. No, there's not a coal-fired steam plant outside the factory powering the machines that make our horseless carriages. . . Engine making is certainly clean and precise, like never before. As for the left in debris and early-generated debris, you say, "there's very little of that anymore" -- right in the middle of a thread where photos establish conclusively that that's exactly what happened.

Cleaner than days of old, sure. Immaculate -- we have a ways to go. . .

Recent history plainly shows that this question really isn't all that critical, at least in the short term. With today's good oils and a decent filter, even a "dirty" new engine should survive OK. But people who join this site aren't here to search out the "merely sufficient." kaesees is right -- it's everyone's choice, as we all strive to do the best we can for our cars. As long as results like this one keep popping up, you're going to have an uphill battle making the "it's a waste" case.

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted by Propflux01
Originally Posted by Bailes1992


I'd rather spend £25 on an oil change to get all that brass and steel out of the oil than leave it in for another 10 months or 11,000miles as specified by the manufacturer. .

There is no way I'd let a 3cyl with a turbo go 11000 miles between changes. I don't care what oil it's using!

Awwwww, c'mon -- what could possibly go wrong. . .?

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by ekpolk
Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Originally Posted by kaesees
. . .

It's everyone's choice whether to dump the factory fill early. The OP made his choice one way and he's glad he did so, while I'm glad I chose the other way; at the end of the day it looks like we both have engines in good working order.


Exactly correct. Besides, the factory fill oil is most times 2-3 times as strong as what you are replacing it with during the 2nd OCI.
To all the people here in this thread worried about metal shavings and such, there's very little of that anymore.
These engines today are not your dad's engines. We now live in the Digital Computers Age. But go ahead, waste $25.......


You say, "exactly correct" to the guy who acknowledges that, "it's everyone's choice whether to dump the factory fill early." And then disparage those who do. Not very consistent. . .

Yes, we all understand that it's 2019, and manufacturing has advanced. No, there's not a coal-fired steam plant outside the factory powering the machines that make our horseless carriages. . . Engine making is certainly clean and precise, like never before. As for the left in debris and early-generated debris, you say, "there's very little of that anymore" -- right in the middle of a thread where photos establish conclusively that that's exactly what happened.

Cleaner than days of old, sure. Immaculate -- we have a ways to go. . .

Recent history plainly shows that this question really isn't all that critical, at least in the short term. With today's good oils and a decent filter, even a "dirty" new engine should survive OK. But people who join this site aren't here to search out the "merely sufficient." kaesees is right -- it's everyone's choice, as we all strive to do the best we can for our cars. As long as results like this one keep popping up, you're going to have an uphill battle making the "it's a waste" case.




I'm willing to bet that the factory fill is the same oil you can buy off the shelf. There is nothing special about it. In a few examples the factory fill may have more moly but you can also buy that same exact oil yourself as well.

 

[racin4ds]

Typical Nissan/Renault/France quality! I'd keep an eye on it and perform regular oil analysis if I were you. Nothing good has come from Nissan since their joint venture with Renault... I had a new 2012 and 2013 Sentra and Versa that needed new engines before 20k miles.... biggest pieces of junk to ever hit the road IMO and I was a huge Nissan fan.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by racin4ds
Typical Nissan/Renault/France quality! I'd keep an eye on it and perform regular oil analysis if I were you. Nothing good has come from Nissan since their joint venture with Renault... I had a new 2012 and 2013 Sentra and Versa that needed new engines before 20k miles.... biggest pieces of junk to ever hit the road IMO and I was a huge Nissan fan.


🛥🛥🛥🛥🛥🎣🎣🎣🎣

 

[Trav]

There is so much misinformation in this thread. You are correct the FF is no better than the stuff off the shelf, the high moly found in some is only from the paste used during assembly to prevent a dry contact as they do not prime the engines oiling circuit during assembly, which is fine as it eliminates a manufacturing step and works just as well.
The question of does the moly washed out during first run into the oil have any significant benefit, probably not as much as one would like to believe as ZDDP would be better for breaking in camshafts. Moly particle solids are not the be all and end all for reducing engine wear.

Then we have this thing about computer made engines and its not your dads engine, what? This among other things is what led to piston slap in many engines, sure the computers can control the machinery more consistently but some manufacturers used this as a way to cut much of the hand fitting out of the process.
The machining of engines is still a very dirty process, the machines doing the cutting, drilling and boring still need their cutting tools cooled with coolant/lubrication, it still generates a lot of swarf.

Proof? Look at any manufacturer and their top shelf engines are hand assembled meaning all critical clearances are checked and adjusted if need be by hand, all the high end cars are done this way and will sometimes carry a plate with the persons name that assembled it. Your dads old car was also done this way to some extent.
Honda themselves published a paper years ago that has long since disappeared from the internet that said they recommend long FF OCI so will "appear green" to the environmentally conscious consumer, this was not an engineering decision.

The effect of these particles may not be dramatic as most seem to end up in the pan and not go through the pump and engine life does not appear to be shortened but some people myself included would rather not have them in the pan either so the oil goes out early. IMO even if this only brings peace of mind it has a value and far from being a waste of money.
People do all sorts of things like clean the combustion chambers of carbon with stuff that smokes like crazy on a perfectly good running engine, putting useless additives in the oil and fuel for no other reason than peace of mind and that is all the snake oil salesmen are selling with most products, peace of mind nothing more.
At least with the oil change you may prevent some particle streaking of pump parts before it hits the filter.

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted by PimTac
. . .

I'm willing to bet that the factory fill is the same oil you can buy off the shelf. There is nothing special about it. In a few examples the factory fill may have more moly but you can also buy that same exact oil yourself as well.

I agree. In fact, as for my car (an overseas build), I'd pretty much assume that it had "Japanese TGMO" (Idemitsu vs Mobil, I'm guessing) and that it was a fairly good oil. In my case, I was less concerned with the debris issue than I was about oil that had been short-tripped several times over the full year that the oil was in the crankcase. In the OP's case, it's clear that there WAS substantial debris in the oil. What its presence suggests is another question.

There's a good answer to the debris issue (that engines are built so well now that it's usually irrelevant), but I haven't really heard a compelling reason NOT to replace year-old oil with unknown usage pattern???

 

[Jimmy_Russells]

Here's the thing I don't understand:

I see there's some metal in the filter in the original post, that's obvious. But, the metal has already travelled through the engine and been captured by the filter. Any damage it would do has already been done, and it's not going back into the engine. Even if you change the oil now, any new metal particles that are created are going to also travel through the engine and get caught by the filter, again. I don't believe draining the original oil is going to have literal chunks of metal debris flowing out with it. If the oil does have remaining micron level suspended metal particles (no doubt it does) that are small enough to travel through the filter, they're not going to be large enough to cause any damage.