It looks like electric vehicles are going to be shoved down our throats

[ripcord]

Is that state or federal taxes? In our state, they spend three quarters of the transportation dollars on public transit which almost no one uses. There's plenty of money to fix the roads, but it's not a priority.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

There are 2.5 million registered vehicles in the city of Los Angeles, one of the cities that would benefit the most from E cars from the emissions standpoint. It would require over 20 gigawatts to charge them over night. More than 7 large nuclear reactors. Ok, they’ll charge at night, so subtract all of California’s solar energy production from the existing capacity. This is why Exxon Mobil is staying the course.

Not necessarily. Many could be charged during the day as they're sitting in parking lots.

 

[OVERKILL]

Not necessarily. Many could be charged during the day as they're sitting in parking lots.

So if it is overcast or raining where is that power going to come from when demand is already high? It'll be gas, lots and lots of gas, or rolling blackouts, demand management...etc. We are making the grid increasingly fragile by removing reliable supply and replacing it with technology that is sporadic and sometimes unpredictable. The contortions and gymnastics necessary to accommodate this bring with it the risk of destabilization and collapse.

 

[supton]

Is that state or federal taxes? In our state, they spend three quarters of the transportation dollars on public transit which almost no one uses. There's plenty of money to fix the roads, but it's not a priority.

Not sure. It was a report, done a few years ago, by some think tank. I'd have to search for it.

I'm going to guess it varies, state to state. NH has very little public transit so I'm guessing we don't spend much there.

 

[javacontour]

Is that state or federal taxes? In our state, they spend three quarters of the transportation dollars on public transit which almost no one uses. There's plenty of money to fix the roads, but it's not a priority.

I looked up our local transit system and rider fares only comprised 20% of the revenue stream. Meaning others not riding paid 80% of the costs.

Not sure which bucket the power to be took that money, so I cannot say what percentage of motor fuels taxes and registration fees went into public transit.

But it is clear riders are not paying for the system by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[supton]

Not necessarily. Many could be charged during the day as they're sitting in parking lots.

I have to wonder: are we assuming that everyone is going to need a full charge every night?

What would happen if everyone had to fill their gas tank every day? What is that, 200 million vehicles times 20 gallons? 4 billions of gas per day? yet we seem to only use 400 million, or 10% of that. Link

In 2019, about 142.71 billion gallons (or about 3.40 billion barrels1) of finished motor gasoline were consumed in the United States, an average of about 390.98 million gallons (or about 9.31 million barrels) per day.

Just wondering if we are over-estimating our actual need, or if these energy calculations are taking this into account.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

So if it is overcast or raining where is that power going to come from when demand is already high? It'll be gas, lots and lots of gas, or rolling blackouts, demand management...etc. We are making the grid increasingly fragile by removing reliable supply and replacing it with technology that is sporadic and sometimes unpredictable. The contortions and gymnastics necessary to accommodate this bring with it the risk of destabilization and collapse.

We're talking about Los Angeles. How the State of Calif chooses to address their future power demands is up to them but we're not talking about the State of Calif but the claim that LA County would have to build 7 nuclear power plants to charge over 2M EV's at night. LA County receives 283 days of sun per year plus solar panels still generate power on cloudy days. Also there's battery storage and home solar where the batteries at home are being charged during the day and used to offset nighttime demand.

 

[eljefino]

I expect most wouldn't be able to charge during the day, since they'd be at work. That's the convenience of plugging in when you are home for the day.

The flipside is offices could be a centralized charging point for people who live in apartments or whatever.

My work offers charging for 99 cents for four hours, and the parking is better too!

 

[Silver]

Don't worry, electric cars will never survive on a flat planet.

 

[OVERKILL]

We're talking about Los Angeles. How the State of Calif chooses to address their future power demands is up to them but we're not talking about the State of Calif but the claim that LA County would have to build 7 nuclear power plants to charge over 2M EV's at night. LA County receives 283 days of sun per year plus solar panels still generate power on cloudy days. Also there's battery storage and home solar where the batteries at home are being charged during the day and used to offset nighttime demand.

Yes, there is still power produced, but it drops considerably. Stability is still an issue and the battery banks are primarily used to avoid paying peaking prices not provide after hours power. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

 

[OVERKILL]

The flipside is offices could be a centralized charging point for people who live in apartments or whatever.

My work offers charging for 99 cents for four hours, and the parking is better too!

Yup, but that'll drive up daytime demand considerably if that starts happening on any real scale so you just create a larger and broader peak period where rates are higher. I can see business not wanting to shoulder that cost if it starts nipping at their profits.

 

[eljefino]

Last I knew, fuel taxes raised only 30% of required money to upkeep our roads. I don't want to argue for more taxes but it appears we don't spend enough on roads as it is (potholes and collapsing bridges anyone?)--and we certainly don't raise enough to pay for the roads.

What the right way is to pay for road upkeep is beyond me, so far no single method seems to work well (registration, fuel tax, tolls).

The right way is with fuel tax. Heavier vehicles push against the pavement more. In fact road wear increases with the fourth power of axle weight. Cars driven more miles use more fuel. The only exception IMO is some whiz-bang engineered bridge or tunnel that's paid for by bonds/tolls.

The issue is with politics, they don't want to catch up to reality in costs. Feds haven't raised gas tax since the mid 1990s and states don't want to outdo each other.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

The flipside is offices could be a centralized charging point for people who live in apartments or whatever.

My work offers charging for 99 cents for four hours, and the parking is better too!

Ya who knows how things will look in 15 let alone 20-30 years.

 

[spasm3]

The right way is with fuel tax. Heavier vehicles push against the pavement more. In fact road wear increases with the fourth power of axle weight. Cars driven more miles use more fuel. The only exception IMO is some whiz-bang engineered bridge or tunnel that's paid for by bonds/tolls.

The issue is with politics, they don't want to catch up to reality in costs. Feds haven't raised gas tax since the mid 1990s and states don't want to outdo each other.

I think the Ev's should have a road tax attached to them when purchased. Perhaps equal to what an similar gas powered ,car would pay over 100kmiles.
The ev car will use the roads and never pay a fuel tax per gallon, yet use the roads for free. Just collect it up front.

 

[PimTac]

The right way is with fuel tax. Heavier vehicles push against the pavement more. In fact road wear increases with the fourth power of axle weight. Cars driven more miles use more fuel. The only exception IMO is some whiz-bang engineered bridge or tunnel that's paid for by bonds/tolls.

The issue is with politics, they don't want to catch up to reality in costs. Feds haven't raised gas tax since the mid 1990s and states don't want to outdo each other.

The gas tax will be going up soon. It’s already in the works. Also, the states will likely raise their gasoline tax. WA is going to raise theirs 38%.

 

[ripcord]

The gas tax will be going up soon. It’s already in the works. Also, the states will likely raise their gasoline tax. WA is going to raise theirs 38%.

What? We're already 4th highest in the nation. We pay 50c a gallon already.

 

[javacontour]

The right way is with fuel tax. Heavier vehicles push against the pavement more. In fact road wear increases with the fourth power of axle weight. Cars driven more miles use more fuel. The only exception IMO is some whiz-bang engineered bridge or tunnel that's paid for by bonds/tolls.

The issue is with politics, they don't want to catch up to reality in costs. Feds haven't raised gas tax since the mid 1990s and states don't want to outdo each other.

Illinois has no problem with collecting taxes, so we should have no budget shortages at all, LOL...

They doubled our gas tax a year or two ago. They also charge sales tax on top of the excise tax. So while not the top tax, we probably are not far off...

 

[Pew]

Illinois has no problem with collecting taxes, so we should have no budget shortages at all, LOL...

They doubled our gas tax a year or two ago. They also charge sales tax on top of the excise tax. So while not the top tax, we probably are not far off...

Eventually they're just gonna start taxing the taxes to make up for the lack of things to tax.

 

[parimento1]

I am perfectly fine with electric cars. Not as many moving parts and emissions equipment, no complex transmission to fail, etc. Also I don't have to sit in traffic behind a semi belching diesel fumes. If I can pull up to a charge station and have my car charged for a week of commuting in 15 minutes, i'd be very happy to have an EV.

Obviously I hate the government shoving things down our throat and making money off of it. 40% of my income goes to the government already and all they do is throw it away on trash programs...but that is a topic for a different forum haha.

 

[Wolf359]

Eventually they're just gonna start taxing the taxes to make up for the lack of things to tax.

No matter how cynical you get, you just can't keep up.

The gas tax basically hasn't gone up because people are resistant to taxes even though the current ones aren't high enough to cover the current costs.