Is This Stuff Really Better Than ZDDP?

[bountyh]

http://www.hyperlube.com/ZRA_Spec_Sheet.pdf They claim this stuff actually protects better under extreme loading than ZDDP, but is completely non toxic to catalytic converters. Anybody know how good it is?

 

[river_rat]

It looks promising--but so does everything in an advertisement. Hard to tell without knowing more about the active ingredients. Hopefully, it's no "teflon" snakeoil. I'd be interested to find out, because right now I am using a very small amount of Lucas TB Zinc Plus with oil in one flat tappet engine. (like 1/2 oz. per 3 quarts)It has no cat.

 

[JAG]

The ad mentions Polymer Esters are used. Those are a very interesting and promising form of esters. They are different from diesters and polyolesters. I can't confirm or deny their wear claims. It should be expensive if it contains a large percentage of polymer esters. I wonder what else is in it...the MSDS may say. I can't find an MSDS for it. Anyone? I checked the price. It's around $14 for .355 Liters. It is expensive which means that it may or may not contain a significant percentage of polymer esters. That is, we can't rule out that it doesn't. For example, if it cost $2 instead, we could rule out expensive ingredients.

 

[unDummy]

I think we'll see more 'better than' comparisons as time progresses. Many additives out there in development to eliminate wear and make the enviro crowd happy. What if your oil already has a blend of "polymer esters" in it? Ratio and synergy are important. More isn't always better. We see that with many additives.

 

[bmwtechguy]

I'll take the Schaeffers 132 alone or as a Molabrew anyday, and the price is right, too.

 

[bountyh]

 Originally Posted By: bmwtechguy

I'll take the Schaeffers 132 alone or as a Molabrew anyday, and the price is right, too.

Link? I never heard of Schaeffers 132. Thanks

 

[toyotaguy]

Acutally I went to the checkout page. Put in 1 bottle. It came up $28.00. The $14 a bottle is if you click on the two bottle purchase. Then 3 bottles and so on, price goes higher. For $28.00 it may contain some good stuff. But 1 bottle treats up to 5 qts of oil.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi, JAG - Just as a point of interest, Polymer processes ("mischpolymerisation") were mentioned in Germany by IG's Leuna facility (Aktennotiz 12 Jan 1942), once again in 1 Feb 1943 and in their Bericht (report) dated 29 Mar 1943 You are correct cost doesn't always tell the true story as high profits can be made from "association" rather than substance IME it is unwise to introduce additives into todays wonderful quality lubricants

 

[Zaedock]

It needs a new name. At first I thought it was a personal lubricant.

 

[bountyh]

 Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary

IME it is unwise to introduce additives into todays wonderful quality lubricants

You probably would not think so if you were riding a 1979 motorcycle with high lift cams and flat tappets like I do. The idiots who decided that motor oil no longer needs ZDDP are basically throwing all the old engines off the cliff and significantly reducing the life of even the newer engines. The idiotic thing is, ZDDP has been killed for the express purpose increasing the life of the catalytic converter from typically 100K to 150K miles..... but, that part only costs about $300 so I consider that incredibly stupid strategy when the side effect is to significantly reduce the operating life of the engine which costs about 30X as much as a catalytic converter. Anyway, those of us with older engines have no choice but to put additives into "todays wonderful quality lubricants ".

 

[hate2work]

Bounty- Why don't you just buy and use an oil that is designed for your type of engine? There have been several talked about on this forum.

 

[bountyh]

 Originally Posted By: bmwtechguy

I'll take the Schaeffers 132 alone or as a Molabrew anyday, and the price is right, too.

According to it's sheet, it's a moly additive which is OK for lubrication qualities but does not act like ZDDP. The zinc/phosphorous in ZDDP actually forms a surface layer with the metal which prevents wear during dry startup or extreme pressure which breaks through the oil film. It's for real, as it has been dicumented in car engines for many decades. That's why it was used for so many years.

 

[bountyh]

 Originally Posted By: hate2work

Bounty- Why don't you just buy and use an oil that is designed for your type of engine? There have been several talked about on this forum.

Several reasons: I have a lot of good quality oil on hand, unfortuantely there is no reliable way to know how much (if any) ZDDP is in them. Discussions about the "good oil for motorcycles" do not always arrive at similar conclusions..... many of the top bike oils have shown poor test results. many good car oils have teflon additives that screw up a bike clutch. I believe if I use a good quality oil with ZDDP (and change at 2K intervals) I will have no problems. At least, 30 years of ownership have proved that to me (original engine).

 

[bmwtechguy]

http://www.schaefferoil.com/specialty/132.html

 

[hate2work]

Bounty, I found this old thread dealing with ZDDP, maybe something in there will help you...someone in there was talking about what he used in his bike. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=984552

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi, bountyyh - Welcome to BITOG. It's also true that a few of us here know a little about "ZDDP" in its various forms and applications - and its limitations

 

[Gary Allan]

 Quote:

The idiotic thing is, ZDDP has been killed for the express purpose increasing the life of the catalytic converter from typically 100K to 150K miles..... but, that part only costs about $300 so I consider that incredibly stupid strategy when the side effect is to significantly reduce the operating life of the engine which costs about 30X as much as a catalytic converter.

Cats are made from a finite precious metal. Their efficiency decreases over their life span. We're probably seeing reductions for "future potential" life spans they may need to operate over and at increased levels of efficiency before being rendered inert under future standards. Right now there are plenty of people (I'm one) that met emissions spec's with a cat with 15 years and 180k on it. Suppose that's much more common, and under much more strict spec's? When platinum is 12X the price it is today? Exponential curves. They can ..no ..make that always catch you by surprise.

 

[brian12]

 Originally Posted By: bountyh

 Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary

IME it is unwise to introduce additives into todays wonderful quality lubricants

You probably would not think so if you were riding a 1979 motorcycle with high lift cams and flat tappets like I do. The idiots who decided that motor oil no longer needs ZDDP are basically throwing all the old engines off the cliff and significantly reducing the life of even the newer engines. The idiotic thing is, ZDDP has been killed for the express purpose increasing the life of the catalytic converter from typically 100K to 150K miles..... but, that part only costs about $300 so I consider that incredibly stupid strategy when the side effect is to significantly reduce the operating life of the engine which costs about 30X as much as a catalytic converter. Anyway, those of us with older engines have no choice but to put additives into "todays wonderful quality lubricants ".

No one ever accused environmentalists of being intelligent, logical or rational.

 

[bountyh]

 Originally Posted By: Gary Allan

 Quote:

The idiotic thing is, ZDDP has been killed for the express purpose increasing the life of the catalytic converter from typically 100K to 150K miles..... but, that part only costs about $300 so I consider that incredibly stupid strategy when the side effect is to significantly reduce the operating life of the engine which costs about 30X as much as a catalytic converter.

Cats are made from a finite precious metal. Their efficiency decreases over their life span. We're probably seeing reductions for "future potential" life spans they may need to operate over and at increased levels of efficiency before being rendered inert under future standards.

That really isn't it at all. The EPA just thinks they can reduce emissions by making the cats live longer, reasoning they will spend more miles in their "working great" region as opposed to their "just about to fail emissions test" region if the cats life span exceeds the car's. I have no idea why you would think platinum is going to 12X cost, unless you mean the dollar may devalue drastically in the near future due to massive deficit spending of the government...... that may be true, but it will make everything get more expensive as well.

 

[bountyh]

 Originally Posted By: hate2work

Bounty, I found this old thread dealing with ZDDP, maybe something in there will help you...someone in there was talking about what he used in his bike. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=984552

Thanks, interesting but I was actually looking for a reasonably priced additive to restore the same performance oils had prior to their castration as opposed to going out and spending $15/quart for new oil when I have multiple cases of very good oil (Castrol GTX, Valvoline Synpower, Formula Shell, Quaker Synthetic, etc...) which will work fine except I really don't want to run without the ZDDP protection.