Is there added economy to Jetta TDI these days?

[jeepman3071]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2


And then one must consider resale and retained value at higher mileages, where the diesels shine.


That was true with older diesels, the new ones not so much. With all of the complicated emission control systems, diesels have become much more expensive to own. You can bet that higher mileage diesels will need expensive repairs down the road.

Many fleets around here have gone back to gas powered trucks. The cost to run a diesel truck does not make sense anymore compared to a gas truck. Diesel fuel is more expensive compared to gas, and with the emissions equipment diesel trucks get fuel mileage that is close to that of gas engines.

 

[supton]

I dodged most of the emissions equipment on my model, and I'm still sorely tempted to go to gas and stay there. But anything with high miles or age gets expensive, no?

 

[Cujet]

The price of VW parts is absurd. And, the quality of some parts (not all) is quite questionable. VW's warranty coverage has traditionally been poor by comparison to the major manufacturers.

For example, an intake manifold "anti shudder" valve (an electronic throttle valve used during shutdown) is about $450. It's made quite well, except for the internal plastic gear that fails. Good luck getting VW to cover it...

Oh, and the O2 sensor is a wideband, $700 unit. They fail too.

VW will never, ever, ever get another penny of mine after the horrible reliability, terrible warranty coverage and disappointing customer service. When my dual mass flywheel failed, I decided that enough was enough.

 

[Vikas]

Quote:
the O2 sensor is a wideband, $700 unit.
What? Toyota has been putting wideband O2 sensor on the Camry since late 90's and the OEM Denso can be had for approximately $150 over internet.

 

[supton]

http://idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=123_31&products_id=1172

$150 for the one for my '04. Mine failed when the turbo failed.

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: supton
http://idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=123_31&products_id=1172

$150 for the one for my '04. Mine failed when the turbo failed.


Nice to see the aftermarket pick up the slack. When mine failed, the dealer was the only option. It cost me $700 for that O2 sensor. And, I was beyond annoyed.

Remember, many newer models don't yet have aftermarket support. So, if you drive many miles and run out of warranty (like I did with VW's stunningly generous 2yr/24000 mile diesel emissions warranty) you will be stuck with dealer prices.

One other point of consideration. Hybrid vehicles have mandatory long warranties on certain critical components. In CA, it may be as long as 10 years 150,000 miles! Diesels don't share this nice feature.

 

[supton]

Being stuck with the dealer is generally bad. At the moment I am somewhat annoyed with myself, when I got my TDi I was content to drive however far necessary to get service. These days I don't want to drive to get service anymore; I just want to drop off at the corner garage, or *gasp* even the dealer and have it done correctly the first time. I failed to take into account life changes down the down the road.

 

[sciphi]

Cruze Diesel competes with the higher trims of the Jetta TDI. They are both considered compacts last I checked. I'd say it's a valid comparison. I'm also pointing out that my car, which gets 4 mpg less than the Cruze Diesel and the exact same 42 EPA highway MPG as the Jetta TDI, is still cheaper. That's not counting all the other 38-41 mpg highway gassers out right now.

The Passat TDI is the only midsize car that is available with a diesel. Some hybrids like the Camry and Fusion are the only real competition it has.

 

[FXjohn]

the first repair bill will eliminate all your savings. get something like a gas cruze or an elantra

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: FXjohn
the first repair bill (On a diesel) will eliminate all your savings. get something like a gas cruze or an elantra


Agreed! Or a Hybrid Toyota/Ford/Honda. It is hard to quantify overall ownership expense of certain vehicles. The VW diesel I owned was the most expensive "economy" car ever produced as far as my wallet could tell. Sure, it achieved 33MPG in town, and 42MPG on the highway, on EXPENSIVE fuel. But, during the 70,000 miles I owned it, my "out of pocket" repair costs reached nearly $10,000.

You might think to yourself "that won't happen to me". I urge you to go to the TDI forums and read up and become informed. Then go to PriusChat forums and read up. You will notice an incredible difference in what gets discussed. Example: PriusChat owners are concerned about what happens when coffee gets spilled into the switches, turning off the backup beeper and new smart keys. The TDI guys are talking about failed "in tank" lift pumps, failed turbo actuators, cars that won't start, glow plug failures and so on. Oh, and towing costs.

 

[JHZR2]

Hmmm.. Yet somehow folks in Europe mainly buy diesels. I know, the fuel is taxed differently, but these supposed repair cost boogeymen don't seem to create the concerns. Much of the stuff being cited here is not low mileage repair type stuff. At 150k+ miles, you can be sure hybrids or other vehicles will also need some expensive components.

As dont even start on the differences in torque ratings.

Frankly I'm not buying it. I see some botched efforts, like some of the ford truck stuff, and then a ton of fear that is just questionable. Poor dealers are an issue, anything else, probably not so much, IMO. If you got a lemon, I'm sorry to hear it. My brother has nearly 70k on his 2011 tdi and hasn't needed a thing. Shall I paint with as broad brush as the doom and gloom that you perpetuate that by 70k, $10k in repairs will be needed?

 

[whip]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Hmmm.. Yet somehow folks in Europe mainly buy diesels.

What is the difference in emission controls between here and Europe? How much of a factor is that in maintenance cost?

 

[supton]

Europe is catching up. They didn't have the EGR and related for a while.

Europeans seem to drive less. I'm not sure what the age of their fleet is. Maybe that has an impact?

Duh, why don't I google that...

??????

Average vehicle age in the UK is 7.44 years, and 8.7 in Europe. And supposedly those are "record" ages at that.

Gee, if they drive 10k/year, and ditch long before 150k, then no wonder why they don't have the issues we do!

 

[cchase]

According to ACEA, average annual mileage in Europe is 8,600 miles.

According to FHWA, average annual mileage in the US is 13,500 miles. Males in the US drive an average of 16,550 miles per year.

As you mentioned supton, average vehicle age in Europe is 8 years, while in the US it is 11.5 years.

So in this country we are driving nearly 60% more miles every year and own our cars for almost 50% longer... no wonder people in this country don't have the same vehicular interests as Europe.

 

[Cujet]

European cars are expensive here, in much the same way that American cars are expensive in Europe.

 

[Ramblejam]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Hmmm.. Yet somehow folks in Europe mainly buy diesels.


http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/diesel-dominance-threatened-eu-emissions-rules

 

[Garak]

And they'll survive that "dark cloud" of regulations just as we did the same here with gasoline engines several times. The world was going to end when lead was removed. The catalytic converter was also the end times. Ethanol, too. Cars are still here, and with more power than ever.

Some of the diesel emissions technology is just new and is having some teething problems.

 

[Thermo1223]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
Originally Posted By: FXjohn
the first repair bill (On a diesel) will eliminate all your savings. get something like a gas cruze or an elantra


Agreed! Or a Hybrid Toyota/Ford/Honda. It is hard to quantify overall ownership expense of certain vehicles. The VW diesel I owned was the most expensive "economy" car ever produced as far as my wallet could tell. Sure, it achieved 33MPG in town, and 42MPG on the highway, on EXPENSIVE fuel. But, during the 70,000 miles I owned it, my "out of pocket" repair costs reached nearly $10,000.

You might think to yourself "that won't happen to me". I urge you to go to the TDI forums and read up and become informed. Then go to PriusChat forums and read up. You will notice an incredible difference in what gets discussed. Example: PriusChat owners are concerned about what happens when coffee gets spilled into the switches, turning off the backup beeper and new smart keys. The TDI guys are talking about failed "in tank" lift pumps, failed turbo actuators, cars that won't start, glow plug failures and so on. Oh, and towing costs.


We get it you got bit bad...you are ONE person!

The only thing you will find relevant to new diesels is a thread concerning HPFP. The older TDI's are well past 10 years old and any sane person should expect something to happen sooner or later especially in the rust belt.

Toyota's Hybrid system is not without it's faults especially regarding inverter failures.

Everyone can get a lemon... you did, it happens, move on with life. So you'll never buy another VW, doesn't mean the whole of the world won't.

I know & have heard lemons from every car maker, do you just right them off right away? No, are at least realize it is the nature of the mechanical beast.

 

[Thermo1223]

I meant to add DPF as a concern as well, their longevity has come into question regardless of who makes them I feel.

 

[sciphi]

Diesel seems to be a private-passenger niche fuel these days more than anything. If one wants a car with gobs of torque and decent MPG, they get a diesel.

Then again, modern DI/turbocharged gas engines have their own set of problems these days. Intercoolers to get punctured, more frequent oil changes with more expensive oil, and potential intake deposits. Not to mention relying on knock sensors to keep the engine safe on 87 octane fuel.