is Regular oil safe for '03 BMW?

[mva]

So your point is that an oil that meets A3 is equivalent to BMW LL01 and A1 is close to A3, so an oil that meets A1 should be fine in the OP's BMW for a reasonable OCI, such as 5000 miles?

I will concede that an oil that meets A1 should be ok in this car for 5000 to 6000 miles. But, the only oils available that meet A1 are all synthetics.

I do not believe that most conventional north american SM dino oils meet A1. If they did, then why wouldn't at least one major manufacturer make this claim?


Maybe a more civil question would be:

If North American dino oil is the only thing available, what would you run in a 2003 BMW?

If I had to run dino oil in my 2000 BMW, I would use Rotella T 15W40 or Castrol GTX 20W50 and it would probably be fine for at least 5000 miles since I don't drive this car in the winter.

There is no SM dino oil that can match a BMW approved LL01 oil in extreme high temperature and extreme low temperature conditions.

I would much rather have someone run LL01 oil to intervals per BMW's oil life monitor than have someone run 5W20 dino for 6,000 miles, as was suggested in an earlier post and I have provided some evidence to show that BMW approved oil works over long intervals.

BMW LL01 is what is recommended and it works. Plus, if you run it to 15,000 miles it is just as cost effective as any dino run to 6,000 miles.

In addition, I do not believe that any oil that meets A3 can meet BMW LL01.

 

[Audi Junkie]

Offhand, I know Castrol's Blend oil is A1 and that GTX 10w-40 "Mineral" as sold in Europe for L.19 Pounds for 4 Liters meets A3.

http://www.castrol.com/castrol/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9014101&contentId=7027413

I'm not really going out on a limb with this, really.

Does someone wany to compare API SM specs to A3 or even better, a BMW expert get a copy of the outdated LL-01 spec to compare.

btw- Dr.Hass got great UOA results with 5w-20 in his new Ferrari, which specs 10w-60. I assume people here know this stuff, but I guess not.

 

[Audi Junkie]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
My grandfather would have rapped me across the shins with a cane if I ever spoke to him with that sort of tone.


It sounds like "respect" is a one-way street for you, and ...I'm certianly not anyone's "boy".

 

[mva]

Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
btw- Dr.Hass got great UOA results with 5w-20 in his new Ferrari, which specs 10w-60. I assume people here know this stuff, but I guess not.


The in last UOA posted by AeHaas he was running Castrol Syntec 0W30 which is a BMW LL01 approved oil!

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...589#Post1409589

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
mva - You make some good points. BMW engines typically run with high operating oil temperatures - in the order of 100C and beyond. Many diverse engine families from other makers operate in the 88-98C range

M3 engines were permitted to have operating oil temperatures up to and around 130C. This is beyond the realm for most mineral lubricants. Rapid oxidation begins to occur beyond 115C with mineral lubricants

The HTHS requirement of many Euro engine families is also a critical consideration in engine operation and durability. So is the use of Approved synthetic lubricants which have more predictable linear flow characteristics than mineral lubricants do

These factors have been proven to be quite significant in VANOS and VALVETRONIC equipped BMW engines (similarly with MB and Porsche engines). This is especially so at low "cold start" temperatures and at the high temprature end when the HTHS viscosity (and beyond) becomes critical at certain component locations. Lubricant that quickly exit the ring pack area slow wear and play a relevant cooling role - synthetics are good at this

Porsche has not Approved or Listed a ?W-30 viscosity lubricant for use in any "in-house" engine family since MY1999. In "in house" Porsche engines the HTHS viscosity remains a major requirement at extended Testing protocols - hence all Approvals are for SAE40 lubricanst (around 33% of Approvals are 0W-40 the balance being 5W-40 (M1 5W-50 is Listed)). The factory fill is 0W-40 and so it is the almost universal service, race and owner supplied viscosity lubricant in use today for engines from >MY99

I suspect much of this is the same for BMW engines!

I hope this adds a little to this topic in a sensible way

 

[sprintman]

Doug welcome back. Any chance you can start a post on your trip and any oil.tech related stuff you discovered as I'm sure the majority here would be interested? Many thanks..s

 

[crinkles]

if i paid good money for a beemer... i will most definitely use what is specced! geez! tight arses ! put some [censored] good oil in your expensive car.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
sprintman - Thanks for your comments. Yes, I will start a Thread early next week that will cover the lubricant related points

 

[sprintman]

Thankyou. Cheers..stephen

 

[crinkles]

+1 thanks doug.

 

[sprintman]

At least it will be worth reading, which is a lot more than we can say from anything posted by the AJ imo.

 

[Audi Junkie]

Yawn.

So, noone has a copy of BMW's test protocol? Ok...

Doug, what defines "synthetic" oil anyway?

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
In five pages I don't see a single fact, not even a valid theory, why the OP can't use good dino 10w-40 in his car. It's a legitimate question and there should be a little bit more focused thought put into it.

Who amongst you will volenteer?


So did you step up to the plate yet.

Throwing up your Dr Hauss and his Ferrari is another FAIL for you. He isn't looking for volunteers to test it in their cars.
He's willing to put his own to the test.

I'll stick with the spec'd oil. The fact that Doug Hillary says the same puts me in very good company.

 

[Audi Junkie]

Analysis by consensus. That's what good science is based on.

Since you can't seem to figure it out, the whole point of my statement is that IF I drove a BMW, I'd use a 40 weight dino. Since you won't volenteer, it really does not have anything to do with you, especially considering your lack of knowledge on the subject.

fyi- this isn't the first time Doug has tensed up on us or been wrong.

 

[Trajan]

It's best for the engine to use the oil that BMW recommends. I'd lay vast sums of money on the fact that they didn't just pick said oils out of a hat. In fact, I'm betting my engine on it. And in the last 3 years and 77,000 miles, alot of which is spirited driving, I've won that bet.

I have seen no reason to bet otherwise. I'm certainly not about to buy what you're selling. Why should I or anyone else? You don't do it. All the more reason that I, or any other bimmer owner in this thread shouldn't either.

 

[Audi Junkie]

Well, the original poster asked: Is regular oil safe in an '03 BMW? That's the question at hand, not "is dino oil the same as BMW oil under the long change intervals they recommend".

It's both shallow and rehtorical to continually answer with the non-answer of "BMW said to use their oil". Does that mean full-length ocis or not? If so, then I still see a problem, because the track record on BMW oil is not spotless. I assume you run yours to 15k, since you have so much blind faith in BMW, right? Put up or shut up.

Not only am I talking about half-length or shorter ocis, the spec you refer to was contrived on another continent, outdated, plus you have ZERO information on it. So, dino 10w-40 SM could be the equal of BMW oil, and you would NEVER EVEN KNOW. I find that hysterical, since we're on an oil forum, I mean why bother even coming here to read from the manual? Your Mommy could do that for you.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Yawn.

So, noone has a copy of BMW's test protocol? Ok...

Doug, what defines "synthetic" oil anyway?


Very weak.

So, you haven't provided a list of dino that meets their tests?
Even though that would be much easier? Ok....

Nothing stopping you from asking them for it though. But that would be as difficult as you running dino in your own bimmer to prove your own theory.

But as the tone of your posts indicate, you'd only dismiss it as easily as you did Doug's first post.

 

[sprintman]

AJ BMW wouldn't let a DH like you own one of their cars.

 

[Jim 5]

It was mentioned that Castrol recommends a 15w-40 for normally a BMW inline sixes before 2000. If I'm not mistaken, that was the same year that BMW went from a recommended 7500 mile OCI to a 15k mile OCI. Coincidence?

Also, as Doug Hillary alluded to, there were changes to the vanos system around this same time. The new vanos systems do not function in cold temperatures with higher viscosity oils. Coincidence?

I believe that if you can run a dino oil in a VQ35 engine (similar power density) with something like a 4L sump for 8k miles with good UOA's, then you can run a dino 10w-40 in a BMW inline 6 with a 7L sump for 7.5k miles without problems, but only if you eliminate certain issues like cold temperatures and track days.

I believe the reason for synthetics in BMW inline sixes is twofold:

- Cold temperature performance
- 15k OCI's
- High Heat (not so convinced of this)

If you are mitigating these factors through warm climate and short OCI's, I believe you can depart from the factory recommendation.

My 02 engine is no different than an 03 or 04 BMW inline 6 of the same displacement (except ZHP's which had a different cam). I had these same concerns around running a dino oil in my BMW when I ARX'd it at 33k miles (because I'm OCD). Before I ran dino oil in it, I got Terry Dyson's advice and he made me confident that there is no risk in running a dino oil in this engine, becuase I was doing it through a summer only.

Manufacturer recommedations, after all, are made based on a number of variables. In this case, and in my opinion the only compelling ones are long OCI's, power density (heat) and cold start (vanos issues). I am not totally convinced that if you manage these variables by running short OCI's, not tracking the car, and living in a climate that is not too cold for the vanos system, you can't run a dino successfully.

But the manufacturer's approved oil must cover EVERY POSSIBLE consumer use of the vehicle, explaining the synthetic recommendation.

I don't do long OCI's because until recently I was only putting 5k km's on this car per year. I still run GC. The real reason I run synthetic is that it is not unusual for me to drive this car in -25C. Full stop.

I expect, based on the track record of a certain new BITOG member, to be met with sarcasm, ridicule and criticism (which incidentally is no way persuasive). It will roll off my back. Manufacturer's recommendations are made for reasons.

The bottom line is that if you understand those the reasons, you can safely depart from them.

Otherwise there would have been massive cooling failures experienced by all the people who took Dexcool out of their GM vehicles and ran conventional coolant for non longlife intervals.

Terry Dyson understands those reasons, and I relied on his advice with no negative consequences. Admittedly, it was through 2 short OCI's.

In any case, the sustained lack of civility in this thread is in my own opinion a low point for BITOG.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
My grandfather would have rapped me across the shins with a cane if I ever spoke to him with that sort of tone.


It sounds like "respect" is a one-way street for you, and ...I'm certianly not anyone's "boy".


No, respect is a two-way street. You simply seem to lack any for somebody with an opinion differing from yours. Why would I go out of my way to show respect for your posts if the first thing you say to me is disrespectful?

This is hardly complicated.....

And in regards to the "boy" comment, it sounds like you have some sort of personal hang-up on respect and discipline. Too bad, seems to be the direction society is taking though.