Is a hybrid right for my commute?

[CharlesInCharge]

You know what is a worse financial decision than buying a new car? Being fired because you can't reliably show up on time.

Why would that happen on a WELL MAINTAINED car? I have never once had a well maintained used car strand me anywhere, that a new car wouldn't also be plagued with (e.g. flat tire, accident, etc.). If you're maintaining a car, changing fluids, keeping the battery new, addressing issues when they arise, there's almost zero chance of being stranded.

But let's assume one is stranded. Guess what you do. You call work, tell them car is dead, and you'll be 30 minutes late and you get an UBER that day. You're still $18,500 ahead of the game.

This is not rocket science. This is basic, fundamental, vehicles and economics.

 

[PimTac]

There is more involved here than just money. The OP will make the decision that is right for him.

Hopefully he will post back once that is done after all the rigaramole this thread has gone through.

 

[CharlesInCharge]

lol, the goalposts keep moving

First it was a $2000 car. Then it was an older, reliable car. Now, it's three of them!

I haven't moved any goal posts. Nice try. I've said you COULD get 3 and still be ahead financially. I did not say you needed 3. Every car I've owned, dozens, has been used except 2. Not a single car has stranded me anywhere, ever, except when I had a battery die which could happen to any car. It was just a faulty battery. Been driving for decades, owned dozens of cars.

I guess you must buy a new car every month, because after a month your car is "old and used." lol.

Do you not know how to maintain a car? It's not difficult.

 

[Jimmy_Russells]

Why would that happen on a WELL MAINTAINED car? I have never once had a well maintained used car strand me anywhere, that a new car wouldn't also be plagued with (e.g. flat tire, accident, etc.). If you're maintaining a car, changing fluids, keeping the battery new, addressing issues when they arise, there's almost zero chance of being stranded.

But let's assume one is stranded. Guess what you do. You call work, tell them car is dead, and you'll be 30 minutes late and you get an UBER that day. You're still $18,500 ahead of the game.

This is not rocket science. This is basic, fundamental, vehicles and economics.

If you genuinely believe regular maintenance is going to prevent your alternator or starter from randomly dying, or a coil pack, injector, random sensor, fuel pump, or any other 100 things that can fail with no warning, I genuinely don't know what to say about that.

 

[PimTac]

Do you not know how to maintain a car? It's not difficult.

You are assuming something and there is a famous adage about that.

Some of us don’t have the means or the time or the ability to work on cars. In my case, age has made that decision for me.

 

[supton]

No joke. I noticed a weeping crack in my radiator. So I ordered one. It showed up, got the system full, and… the battery light is on. New alternator and… won’t go into gear. Broken shifter cable. Three consecutive failures. One month (I mail ordered and try some brushes in high hopes, only for it to be a nope not that). Statistical anomaly but that was a bad month of downtime, only tolerable by having a spare vehicle.

Uber? Out here? we barely have traffic lights! 30 miles to a car rental place. I live 50+ miles from work, I take a failure its way more than 30 minutes downtime. Thank god for work from home, now I can tolerate way more breakage. Only thing is, my spare vehicle is a target for all the rodents on my land.

 

[Skippy722]

And this is relevant how? The OP works and drives long distances, and seemingly on some economic budget to maintain. A retired guy's situation is far afield.

"Crawling." Exaggeration much? I spent 1 hour and $1 admission to a junk yard a few days ago. I took a drill, screwdriver, and some bits. Got an armful of small useful parts for several cars (small trim pieces mainly, minor stuff, extra gas caps, etc.) for probably 10 cents on the dollar retail. Effort level was 1 out of 10. No crawling involved. I opened a few doors and hoods.

This is largely an economics thread. As I've stated, new cars are not good investments, nor good economics. Ask any prudent financial advisor and the advice you get is consistent with mine. Buy a well maintained used car for cash and keep it maintained. You can get probably 4 decades of service out of it.

There is a time component you are totally disregarding, as well as a risk/cost vs benefit analysis that all life decisions have that we all must make. What is your time worth to you? At the current stage of my life, I want to spend as little time as humanly possible working on vehicles, I have young children and an amazing wife I’d much rather spend time with.

As for risk/cost vs benefit analysis, that will vary person to person. For some, little creature comforts are must haves, others are okay without all that. If I was driving 120 miles a day, I want a nicer newer vehicle with some creature comforts like heated/cooled seats, heated steering wheel for in the winter, and Bluetooth connectivity. You’re also not getting 40 years out of a daily driven vehicle in the rust belt… salt eats everything.

Not everything needs to be broken down to “how cheap can I do this?” If that’s something you are interested in, that’s fine, but not everyone lives that way. It doesn’t make you nor them wrong, you just have different values. Twelve clearly isn’t interested in having the absolute lowest cost per mile, all he asked was “would this make sense?”

 

[Pew]

I maintain my current car very well, way more than what's needed but that didn't stop the flywheel from breaking 1200 miles away from home - nor did it stop the engine mount from breaking 900 miles away from home. Also didn't help the car in my picture blow two holes through the engine.

The OP is spending over 60K miles in his car every year. I couldn't even top 50k miles a year for both recreational and daily use. I'm sure not spending money on a 20 year old beater no matter how "well maintained" it was while having enough confidence to drive 240 miles per day. Shoot, after two years or 150k-ish miles you'll break even on gas savings. All while having warranty for the majority of it and probably with a loner car too.

 

[CharlesInCharge]

I maintain my current car very well, way more than what's needed but that didn't stop the flywheel from breaking 1200 miles away from home - nor did it stop the engine mount from breaking 900 miles away from home. Also didn't help the car in my picture blow two holes through the engine.

The OP is spending over 60K miles in his car every year. I couldn't even top 50k miles a year for both recreational and daily use. I'm sure not spending money on a 20 year old beater no matter how "well maintained" it was while having enough confidence to drive 240 miles per day. Shoot, after two years or 150k-ish miles you'll break even on gas savings. All while having warranty for the majority of it and probably with a loner car too.

There is a time component you are totally disregarding, as well as a risk/cost vs benefit analysis that all life decisions have that we all must make. What is your time worth to you? At the current stage of my life, I want to spend as little time as humanly possible working on vehicles, I have young children and an amazing wife I’d much rather spend time with.

As for risk/cost vs benefit analysis, that will vary person to person. For some, little creature comforts are must haves, others are okay without all that. If I was driving 120 miles a day, I want a nicer newer vehicle with some creature comforts like heated/cooled seats, heated steering wheel for in the winter, and Bluetooth connectivity. You’re also not getting 40 years out of a daily driven vehicle in the rust belt… salt eats everything.

Not everything needs to be broken down to “how cheap can I do this?” If that’s something you are interested in, that’s fine, but not everyone lives that way. It doesn’t make you nor them wrong, you just have different values. Twelve clearly isn’t interested in having the absolute lowest cost per mile, all he asked was “would this make sense?”

In that case we're collectively bickering and advising the OP incorrectly. Only one person got the right answer. Move closer to work.

If the OP is spending 60,000 miles annually in the car, any car, he's going to burn thru new cars every five to seven years / 300,000-400,000+ miles. He's spending tens of thousands of dollars on fuel even at 40mpg, which is $6,000 per year. He's going to rapidly, as in year 1 or 2, burn thru any normal warranties and be paying out of pocket or aftermarket warranties for services beginning in year 2 of ownership, on a practically new car. And, we have not touched on the TIME factor you raised, Skippy. Even at 1 mile per minute, 60,000 annual miles is 1000 hours in the car, and that's a generous estimate. Even with highway commutes, there's back roads and stop and go, fuel stops, etc, so the average is probably closer to 30mph and 2000 hours annually in the car, which itself is a 2nd full time job.

In total, the OP is working a 2nd job just commuting 60k miles annually, spending $6k annually on fuel, and burning thru a new car and expenses every 5-7 yrs probably losing tens of thousands of dollars per vehicle iteration!

The only sound advice is to move closer to work or work closer to home.

 

[doublebase]

I maintain my current car very well, way more than what's needed but that didn't stop the flywheel from breaking 1200 miles away from home - nor did it stop the engine mount from breaking 900 miles away from home. Also didn't help the car in my picture blow two holes through the engine.

The OP is spending over 60K miles in his car every year. I couldn't even top 50k miles a year for both recreational and daily use. I'm sure not spending money on a 20 year old beater no matter how "well maintained" it was while having enough confidence to drive 240 miles per day. Shoot, after two years or 150k-ish miles you'll break even on gas savings. All while having warranty for the majority of it and probably with a loner car too.

I too maintain my vehicles extremely well, to the point I’m probably over maintaining them, and you’re 100% correct...they still will fail and possibly leave you stranded. That’s what happens when parts of the car age, they weaken and fail.

I kept my Honda Accord 17 years and 289,000 miles. I changed the oil every 3,000 miles and changed the transmission fluid every 20,000 miles. I also did coolant once every two years and replaced all my cabin and engine filters once a year. I would wax the paint every three months and wash it weekly.

But none of that kept the engine from burning through a quart every 500 miles when it got up over 250,000 miles. None of that kept my gas tank from rotting out and me needing to remove the entire rear suspension, brake system and exhaust, to remove and replace it. None of that kept the factory defect of Honda placing the evap tube directly into the front subframe...and me having to replace that...which is probably a $3,000 dollar job if you don’t do it yourself.

Great car though. Probably one of my favorites. And it did save me thousands by keeping it that long (I purchased it new in 1999 and kept it till 2016). But it did take WORK TO GET IT THAT FAR (289,000 miles). This is what I did to keep one of the more reliable vehicles made, to get to 289,000 miles...

Front calipers three times
Gas tank
Charcoal canister twice
Evap vent solenoid twice
Front engine mount three times
rear engine mount
timing belt and water pump x 2
2-3 axles
2-3 upper control arms
lower ball joints
countless front AND rear sway bar links and bushings, I’m talking countless!!
at least five mufflers
a power steering rack
tie rods a few times
rear brakes
radiator
VTEC solenoid
upstream A/F ratio sensor...much more expensive than an O2 sensor
transmission shift switch
EGR valve
Brake lines once, needed them again when I got rid of it
Fuel lines once^^^ same thing, needed them again. Not a fun job!
Front struts

After all this^^^^ and probably much more that I’m forgetting, the car was using a quart of oil every 500 miles and couldn’t idle without stalling most of the time. The paint on the roof, hood and trunk was terribly faded (despite the waxing religiously for 17 years). All of the headlights were faded. The braking system was lacking consistency - just couldn’t keep up with the pulls, vibrations and occasional noise. The steering Wheel was never straight or couldnt be adjusted straight after 200,000 miles...this is what happens when every bushing in the front end is over 15 years old. And I must say - to anyone still reading this - once I got a newer car...I couldn’t believe the difference! The stopping ability, the headlights at night, the power, performance, and reliability. To NOT have to worry constantly about the next thing that would happen.

But I did love this ^^^ car. I really did. It saved me a ton of money, BUT it did start to cost me and it did leave me stranded towards the end and I just couldn’t justify keeping it on the road anymore. I never had to replace the engine (although it was probably on its way). And I never had to replace the transmission, despite those units being known for early failure...I like to think the yearly tranny services and constant babying played a part. And I was bothered that the paint just couldn’t hold up despite constant care. But would I do it again? Probably not. I think 10 years will be the most for me, but who knows? I do like saving money, it’s just that like anything else it takes WORK. Lots of work, effort and at some point you will be outright embarrassed to be driving that old beat up well cared for car.

 

[supton]

In that case we're collectively bickering and advising the OP incorrectly. Only one person got the right answer. Move closer to work.

If the OP is spending 60,000 miles annually in the car, any car, he's going to burn thru new cars every five to seven years / 300,000-400,000+ miles. He's spending tens of thousands of dollars on fuel even at 40mpg, which is $6,000 per year. He's going to rapidly, as in year 1 or 2, burn thru any normal warranties and be paying out of pocket or aftermarket warranties for services beginning in year 2 of ownership, on a practically new car. And, we have not touched on the TIME factor you raised, Skippy. Even at 1 mile per minute, 60,000 annual miles is 1000 hours in the car, and that's a generous estimate. Even with highway commutes, there's back roads and stop and go, fuel stops, etc, so the average is probably closer to 30mph and 2000 hours annually in the car, which itself is a 2nd full time job.

In total, the OP is working a 2nd job just commuting 60k miles annually, spending $6k annually on fuel, and burning thru a new car and expenses every 5-7 yrs probably losing tens of thousands of dollars per vehicle iteration!

The only sound advice is to move closer to work or work closer to home.

That I would have to agree with. 1,200 miles per does seem excessive if not in dire economic times.

 

[avacado11]

The Camry 4 cyl might consistently get 40 mpg on the highway but your average will drop quick when you get into traffic.

considering the Camry hybrid doesn’t cost much more over the standard Camry I could see it be a justifiable upfront cost if you’re doing 120 miles trips on a daily basis. It would quickly pay for itself.

hybrids are the best blend of city/highway fuel economy. ICEs you lose on city mpg, EVs you lose on highway range. Next up would be a diesel, but I can’t name any new diesel commuter cars that can be had new here. I think Land Rover still makes some diesel SUVs if you’re willing to drop $80k lol.

 

[JHZR2]

I drive my accord hybrid sort of like this, just in aggregate, not per trip.

Each hybrid system is biased a bit different.

I think you’ll do well with the back roads, and your neighborhood, and around work. It will be econoical but not as great on the highway part.

45 shouldn’t be a problem, though the 70mph part is what will bring you down. That said, no other powertrain short of a diesel will return those MPGs on the highway part, and especially not mixed.

So I doubt you can really do better than with the hybrid. Question becomes if for all the miles you’re putting on, if you’d be better off just burning up some simple economic cars or used cars, since hybrids tend to bring a premium. The fuel savings may well pay for itself in your case.

 

[twelve]

So back to my main question... All I was basically wondering was how does a hybrid drive on long interstate distances vs. a regular 4 or 6 cyl engine. I'm not buying a 20 year old beater, and yes around here it will be a beater. I make too much money to drive around in **** box, plus I have to put my kids in there too. I don't need a new car, just seeing if it would be worth it to better match something more suitable to my drive. Figured with used trucks being at an all time high it might be the best time to try and trade it in. And for some reason it won't let me update the original post, but it's 120 miles a day total, sometimes more if I have to pick up the kids from school. I have some vacation time coming up next week so I'm going to go out and kick some tires then and see how they drive.

 

[JHZR2]

So back to my main question... All I was basically wondering was how does a hybrid drive on long interstate distances vs. a regular 4 or 6 cyl engine. I'm not buying a 20 year old beater, and yes around here it will be a beater. I make too much money to drive around in **** box, plus I have to put my kids in there too. I don't need a new car, just seeing if it would be worth it to better match something more suitable to my drive. Figured with used trucks being at an all time high it might be the best time to try and trade it in. And for some reason it won't let me update the original post, but it's 120 miles a day total, sometimes more if I have to pick up the kids from school. I have some vacation time coming up next week so I'm going to go out and kick some tires then and see how they drive.

And a hybrid will do better on all counts - they just don’t do as well on the interstate because you can’t turn the engine off as readily, and recapture less in the batteries. This is why most of them have lower highway numbers vs city mpg numbers. The faster you go, the more the aerodynamic drag, the more power and fuel you need to consume. Nothing you can do about that but reduce the power level you require. That means driving slower or less.

 

[IveBeenRued]

So back to my main question... All I was basically wondering was how does a hybrid drive on long interstate distances vs. a regular 4 or 6 cyl engine. I'm not buying a 20 year old beater, and yes around here it will be a beater. I make too much money to drive around in **** box, plus I have to put my kids in there too. I don't need a new car, just seeing if it would be worth it to better match something more suitable to my drive. Figured with used trucks being at an all time high it might be the best time to try and trade it in. And for some reason it won't let me update the original post, but it's 120 miles a day total, sometimes more if I have to pick up the kids from school. I have some vacation time coming up next week so I'm going to go out and kick some tires then and see how they drive.

Just buy a newer hybrid. By saving $2,500/year in fuel (compared to your truck), you’ll be able to literally pay for a $25K-30K hybrid in 10-12 years of ownership just in the fuel savings.

Just stick to Toyota or Honda; they have the most reliable hybrid systems and they hold their resale value better than the other brands.

 

[PandaBear]

Fuzzy. Math.

2021 Camry Hybrid MPG. 51/53
2000 Camry MPG. 20/28.

I'll grant a approx double MPG improvement. HOWEVER.

Where's your taxes? 10x as much for the newer car. The TAXES alone on the newer car are more than the older one. A 1 time hit that more than pays for the older one.

Where's your registration fees? I bet way more every year in the newer car. Probably $1000 more over the decade.

Where is your auto insurance? I bet it's probably $1000 more per year for the new car, or $10,000 more over the decade. Also, you need full coverage if you have a note on the car, but not on the older one if you paid cash.

Where's the interest and loan? Typically a 5%-10% loan on a $30,000 car. That turns it into a $45,000 car.

So let's amend the balance sheet, shall we, to reflect a more accurate reality.

2021 Camry additional expenditures
($15,000 loan amount)
($5000-$10,000 extra insurance premiums, about $500-$1000 more per year)
($3000 extra taxes)
($100 per year or $1000 extra registration over 10 years)

So now that $30,000 Camry, in 10 years is a $30,000 + $15,000 (loan), $3000 (taxes), $5-10k (insurance), $1000 (registration x 10 years) = nearly $55,000 to $60,000 car. Which has, after 10 years, depreciated to about $10,000 in value. This is why buying new cars is financially foolish.
Add the fuel, $12k. And outside warranty repairs, let's just add $1000. You're at $73k.


2000 Camry
$3000 initial purchase.
Let's double that for old vehicle extra maintenance, $3k. Now we are at $6k.
Taxes, $300, registration, trivial, insurance, basic and trivial. Call it $500 annually. $5k on a decade.
Let's add fuel, $24k. Now we're at $35k.
Heck, another big repair, $10k. Now we are at $45k.

Still ahead of the game by $27k.
What, another $5k repair. Geez.
Still ahead by $22k.

Car breaks down and is unrepairable.
Go buy another $3000, 20 year old car, and start over.

Still up by $19,000. Nineteen thousand dollars in the black.

As someone who just sold a 97 Camry XLE V6 from one unhappy buyer to another, I'd say you need to factor in how much it cost when an old car that cost $3k eventually break down occasionally.

It is expensive to own a beater if you need a reliable car for a job that you need to be on time and on site. Yeah it is cheap if you have N+1 car in your house and you can ask your retired spouse to pick you up from the mechanic once every 6 month and let him have the car for 1 week to fix it for you at a discount, but it is expensive as heck if you need it to commute and pick up 2 children from school every day.

 

[PandaBear]

And yet, mathematically you are again incorrect.

Average age of cars on the road is 12 years. To reach 12 year average, cars from new (0 years) to 24 years old would be required. Maybe even older. The mean or bell curve of age would be about 6 to 16 years old. So MOST PEOPLE are driving cars closer to what I am suggesting, than what you suggest. MOST PEOPLE cannot afford a new car.

Again, go speak to 100 financial advisors or do a little research. I bet overwhelmingly "new cars" are listed as bad financial decisions.

Tell me the name of a financial advisor who ask people to buy a beater and miss work, and say it is good for your financial future.

When you spin the statistics around, you will realize that you are buying not a car with statistically 4 year of life left, but buying the worst 4/24 vehicle on the road. Is buying the worst 1/6 of anything on the road ever a good decision? not just a financial one but the amount of stress you will get when you have to constantly think about it?

Let's put it this way, Mexico will accept tax free used car import on the 10th year of the car since manufacturing / model year. They say they do not want to accept all the junk (older than 10 years) in the US like China does not want to accept all the junk plastic from the rest of the world. That says something about your logic.

 

[Rmay635703]

Sounds like a commute for a cheap hoopty 2000 Honda Insight 5mt 60mpg+ easy just make sure your not in emissions land

 

[PandaBear]

Why would that happen on a WELL MAINTAINED car? I have never once had a well maintained used car strand me anywhere, that a new car wouldn't also be plagued with (e.g. flat tire, accident, etc.). If you're maintaining a car, changing fluids, keeping the battery new, addressing issues when they arise, there's almost zero chance of being stranded.

But let's assume one is stranded. Guess what you do. You call work, tell them car is dead, and you'll be 30 minutes late and you get an UBER that day. You're still $18,500 ahead of the game.

This is not rocket science. This is basic, fundamental, vehicles and economics.

I maintain my car pretty well, and I still get stranded because things break (i.e. radiator cracked, ignition coil breakdown, fuel pump failure, etc). Of course you also have problem if you get into an accident as well but that's beyond your control. These are typically NOT preventive maintenance and you replace them as they break down.

Will you really only be 30 mins late if you just call an uber or if you are on the side of the road? Based on what I have seen calling a tow truck would take 1 hr after they arrive and tow you home, uber to work, etc and I live close to work already.

Will you just be 30 mins late to work that day? or will you lose your job / bonus that year if it happens frequently? What do you do AFTER that day and your car run into problem? Will it be magically fixed? Will you need to repair it at $110 / hr + parts (i.e. distributor cost $500 last time, coolant bypass hose $500, $3k head warp / gasket repair) + rental car for 1 day to 1 week to fix the problem (which you need to take time off to pick up and drop off) + more uber ride.

Then factor in when you have kids you will need to arrange rides, this becomes expensive and stressful very quickly. Like I said if you are retired / work from home, and have no need to pick up drop off kids then it is easy, otherwise it is expensive to drive only one beater.