I have to believe there is a price limit on oil quality. Is current motor oils the best they could possibly be, or the best they can be for the market to bear? IF price was not a factor what oil add packs would we see?
I'm going to try Lubro Moly MOS2!
- Thread starter rg200amp
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For sure there is a price constraint on engine oil. If someone made an extra special blend for $50 per quart how many would buy it when $5 per quart oil blends do the same job 99% as well and keep engines running past the useful life of the rest of the vehicle?
Before throwing in a can of snake oil it is worth reading the following section from the Amsoil web site:
{removed non site sponsor link}
One good point that section makes is that the result you get when adding extra additives to an oil will vary from one oil to the next, which is why if I ever find it necessary to use an oil additive because of some problem I can't fix, I will buy one from the same company that makes the oil I am adding it to, so the chances of a bad side effect are reduced.
{removed non site sponsor link}
One good point that section makes is that the result you get when adding extra additives to an oil will vary from one oil to the next, which is why if I ever find it necessary to use an oil additive because of some problem I can't fix, I will buy one from the same company that makes the oil I am adding it to, so the chances of a bad side effect are reduced.
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Originally Posted By: skyship
Before throwing in a can of snake oil it is worth reading the following section from the Amsoil web site:
{removed non site sponsor link}
One good point that section makes is that the result you get when adding extra additives to an oil will vary from one oil to the next, which is why if I ever find it necessary to use an oil additive because of some problem I can't fix, I will buy one from the same company that makes the oil I am adding it to, so the chances of a bad side effect are reduced.
Care to document the cases of oil ruined by Lubro Moly? Or even bad side effects caused by it?
Before throwing in a can of snake oil it is worth reading the following section from the Amsoil web site:
{removed non site sponsor link}
One good point that section makes is that the result you get when adding extra additives to an oil will vary from one oil to the next, which is why if I ever find it necessary to use an oil additive because of some problem I can't fix, I will buy one from the same company that makes the oil I am adding it to, so the chances of a bad side effect are reduced.
Care to document the cases of oil ruined by Lubro Moly? Or even bad side effects caused by it?
They have been running this stuff in Germany since before my time without any problems.
The product has a long history and its performance has never been in question AFAIK.
The product has a long history and its performance has never been in question AFAIK.
Originally Posted By: skyship
Before throwing in a can of snake oil it is worth reading the following section from the Amsoil web site:
{removed non site sponsor link}
One good point that section makes is that the result you get when adding extra additives to an oil will vary from one oil to the next, which is why if I ever find it necessary to use an oil additive because of some problem I can't fix, I will buy one from the same company that makes the oil I am adding it to, so the chances of a bad side effect are reduced.
Buying it from the same company doesnt make a difference. The chemistry can be completely different.
Before throwing in a can of snake oil it is worth reading the following section from the Amsoil web site:
{removed non site sponsor link}
One good point that section makes is that the result you get when adding extra additives to an oil will vary from one oil to the next, which is why if I ever find it necessary to use an oil additive because of some problem I can't fix, I will buy one from the same company that makes the oil I am adding it to, so the chances of a bad side effect are reduced.
Buying it from the same company doesnt make a difference. The chemistry can be completely different.
Skyship, Oil may be formulated by brilliant engineers, but it is also formulated by the marketing department and the accounting department, not to mention the EPA.
Like anything else, additives can be overdone. I doubt very much that Slick 50 was all bad. Note, I didn't say it did any good, nor did I say it was all snake oil.
Like anything else, additives can be overdone. I doubt very much that Slick 50 was all bad. Note, I didn't say it did any good, nor did I say it was all snake oil.
Originally Posted By: Falcon_LS
MoS2 is not an oil quality improver. It uses engine oil as a carrier to plate the moly on the engine's internal surfaces, thereby reducing friction. If you let the car sit for a couple of days and check your oil, you will notice much of the greyish tint will be gone on the dipstick. It does not alter the makeup of the oil it's mixed into.
To the OP, I've used MoS2 in my 4.6 for over 35,000 miles at each and every oil change. The 4.6 loves the stuff.
Falcon summed it up nicely IMO.
That's the beauty of MoS2 IMO. It is not a soluble moly, it merely uses the oil as a carrier.
MoS2 is not an oil quality improver. It uses engine oil as a carrier to plate the moly on the engine's internal surfaces, thereby reducing friction. If you let the car sit for a couple of days and check your oil, you will notice much of the greyish tint will be gone on the dipstick. It does not alter the makeup of the oil it's mixed into.
To the OP, I've used MoS2 in my 4.6 for over 35,000 miles at each and every oil change. The 4.6 loves the stuff.
Falcon summed it up nicely IMO.
That's the beauty of MoS2 IMO. It is not a soluble moly, it merely uses the oil as a carrier.
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Originally Posted By: Falcon_LS
MoS2 is not an oil quality improver. It uses engine oil as a carrier to plate the moly on the engine's internal surfaces, thereby reducing friction. If you let the car sit for a couple of days and check your oil, you will notice much of the greyish tint will be gone on the dipstick. It does not alter the makeup of the oil it's mixed into.
To the OP, I've used MoS2 in my 4.6 for over 35,000 miles at each and every oil change. The 4.6 loves the stuff.
Falcon summed it up nicely IMO.
That's the beauty of MoS2 IMO. It is not a soluble moly, it merely uses the oil as a carrier.
I'm not disputing Moly is a good additive and many good quality oils include it, but it has to be used in balance with all the other additives to avoid side effects or interference with the other additives. If you suddenly add a whole can of it then you are in effect performing a chemistry experiment the outcome of which no one can predict in the long term. The chances of you getting better long term engine wear results in comparison with a top quality oil are very slim. If high Moly levels worked I can assure you the engine manufacturers would be keen to endorse it or sell it under their own brand label.
Some engine manufaturers do sell own label fuel additives, but as far as I am aware none sell oil additives or endorse their use because no one has found one that worked so far.
If you really are addicted to Moly in favor of other additives, Liqui Moly do make a high Moly content oil and using that oil would be far better than trying a DIY chemistry experiment on some other oil type by trying to add it.
Originally Posted By: Falcon_LS
MoS2 is not an oil quality improver. It uses engine oil as a carrier to plate the moly on the engine's internal surfaces, thereby reducing friction. If you let the car sit for a couple of days and check your oil, you will notice much of the greyish tint will be gone on the dipstick. It does not alter the makeup of the oil it's mixed into.
To the OP, I've used MoS2 in my 4.6 for over 35,000 miles at each and every oil change. The 4.6 loves the stuff.
Falcon summed it up nicely IMO.
That's the beauty of MoS2 IMO. It is not a soluble moly, it merely uses the oil as a carrier.
I'm not disputing Moly is a good additive and many good quality oils include it, but it has to be used in balance with all the other additives to avoid side effects or interference with the other additives. If you suddenly add a whole can of it then you are in effect performing a chemistry experiment the outcome of which no one can predict in the long term. The chances of you getting better long term engine wear results in comparison with a top quality oil are very slim. If high Moly levels worked I can assure you the engine manufacturers would be keen to endorse it or sell it under their own brand label.
Some engine manufaturers do sell own label fuel additives, but as far as I am aware none sell oil additives or endorse their use because no one has found one that worked so far.
If you really are addicted to Moly in favor of other additives, Liqui Moly do make a high Moly content oil and using that oil would be far better than trying a DIY chemistry experiment on some other oil type by trying to add it.
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Originally Posted By: skyship
Before throwing in a can of snake oil it is worth reading the following section from the Amsoil web site:
For the record, that is NOT the Amsoil web site.
Before throwing in a can of snake oil it is worth reading the following section from the Amsoil web site:
For the record, that is NOT the Amsoil web site.
MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
IF price was not a factor what oil add packs would we see?
You wouldn't.
IF price was not a factor what oil add packs would we see?
You wouldn't.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
IF price was not a factor what oil add packs would we see?
You wouldn't.
What do you mean?
Quote:
IF price was not a factor what oil add packs would we see?
You wouldn't.
What do you mean?
Quote:
Some engine manufaturers do sell own label fuel additives, but as far as I am aware none sell oil additives or endorse their use because no one has found one that worked so far.
GM had a full line line of additives like GM Part No. 992869 for their current ACDelco supplied EOS which was Part#12345501 previously.
Quote:
a multi-purpose additive concentrate designed to help eliminate lifter sticking, reduce valve train noise, reduce camshaft lobe scuffing, and reduce break-in wear. The use will maintain the additive levels in oil to promote designed-in oil detergency, disperancy and wear protection, especially under severe service conditions such as high load and high operating temperatures.
Over the years companies have looked to the aftermarket to chemical solutions to resolve issues that otherwise cost them a fortune in recalls. A couple of good examples would be..
Subaru using Holt's leak sealer for preventing 2.5 head gasket leaks and Saab with lubeguard red for transmission troubles.
Many companies at one time or another either recommended or supplied themselves an engine oil supplement, cooling system stop leaks, transmission supplements, etc for a verity of reasons.
Basically i am against the wholesale use of additives for no other reason than the feel good factor but if there are specific issues many times there are some products that work very well.
Just because an engine has 75K on the clock doesn't make it an automatic candidate for something like Restore or seal conditioners but it may benefit from something to clean minor varnish and piston ring deposits before they become a problem.
Some engine manufaturers do sell own label fuel additives, but as far as I am aware none sell oil additives or endorse their use because no one has found one that worked so far.
GM had a full line line of additives like GM Part No. 992869 for their current ACDelco supplied EOS which was Part#12345501 previously.
Quote:
a multi-purpose additive concentrate designed to help eliminate lifter sticking, reduce valve train noise, reduce camshaft lobe scuffing, and reduce break-in wear. The use will maintain the additive levels in oil to promote designed-in oil detergency, disperancy and wear protection, especially under severe service conditions such as high load and high operating temperatures.
Over the years companies have looked to the aftermarket to chemical solutions to resolve issues that otherwise cost them a fortune in recalls. A couple of good examples would be..
Subaru using Holt's leak sealer for preventing 2.5 head gasket leaks and Saab with lubeguard red for transmission troubles.
Many companies at one time or another either recommended or supplied themselves an engine oil supplement, cooling system stop leaks, transmission supplements, etc for a verity of reasons.
Basically i am against the wholesale use of additives for no other reason than the feel good factor but if there are specific issues many times there are some products that work very well.
Just because an engine has 75K on the clock doesn't make it an automatic candidate for something like Restore or seal conditioners but it may benefit from something to clean minor varnish and piston ring deposits before they become a problem.
Obviously if your engine manufacturer recommends an additive because of a particular problem that is very different and quite a few do recommend or sell fuel additives and even coolant additives, BUT there are very few cases where they have recommended an oil additive, because in most cases the oil companies have adjusted the add pack of one of their oils to overcome the issue. The exceptions are mostly race engines that require very odd viscosity oils that are not available, so they resort to thickners.
Although some fuel additives are good, I would be careful as quite a number cause side effects like blocked fuel filters and some of the octane boosters are definitely in the snake oil category as they have been proven not to work in most cases.
The only two oil additives I regard as safe and effective are Liqui Moly flush which is only used at idle for 10 minutes just before an oil change (Some local specialist garages use it in my area for older cars when changing the oil) and Ceretec, although I am still doing some research on how well it works and possible side effects, but there is some UOA based evidence that it does improve the wear figures of even the best top quality oils. For old flat tappet engines there is also a case for using a Zinc additive, although there are some oils that do have enough Zinc, so it's not entirely necessary.
Although some fuel additives are good, I would be careful as quite a number cause side effects like blocked fuel filters and some of the octane boosters are definitely in the snake oil category as they have been proven not to work in most cases.
The only two oil additives I regard as safe and effective are Liqui Moly flush which is only used at idle for 10 minutes just before an oil change (Some local specialist garages use it in my area for older cars when changing the oil) and Ceretec, although I am still doing some research on how well it works and possible side effects, but there is some UOA based evidence that it does improve the wear figures of even the best top quality oils. For old flat tappet engines there is also a case for using a Zinc additive, although there are some oils that do have enough Zinc, so it's not entirely necessary.
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Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
Some engine manufaturers do sell own label fuel additives, but as far as I am aware none sell oil additives or endorse their use because no one has found one that worked so far.
GM had a full line line of additives like GM Part No. 992869 for their current ACDelco supplied EOS which was Part#12345501 previously.
Quote:
a multi-purpose additive concentrate designed to help eliminate lifter sticking, reduce valve train noise, reduce camshaft lobe scuffing, and reduce break-in wear. The use will maintain the additive levels in oil to promote designed-in oil detergency, disperancy and wear protection, especially under severe service conditions such as high load and high operating temperatures.
Over the years companies have looked to the aftermarket to chemical solutions to resolve issues that otherwise cost them a fortune in recalls. A couple of good examples would be..
Subaru using Holt's leak sealer for preventing 2.5 head gasket leaks and Saab with lubeguard red for transmission troubles.
Many companies at one time or another either recommended or supplied themselves an engine oil supplement, cooling system stop leaks, transmission supplements, etc for a verity of reasons.
Basically i am against the wholesale use of additives for no other reason than the feel good factor but if there are specific issues many times there are some products that work very well.
Just because an engine has 75K on the clock doesn't make it an automatic candidate for something like Restore or seal conditioners but it may benefit from something to clean minor varnish and piston ring deposits before they become a problem.
Agreed! Isn't it funny when a car mfg screws up they recommend an additive, or even shortening the published OCI? My point is if engineers designed the perfect engine, and oil companies had the perfect gas and oil, why do the car makers sometimes contradict themselves and recommend an additive, or change to their main't program? Sometimes they learn as they go, or the public does the final testing of their product. Many times the additive they recommend to bail them out saves them big $$$ in warranty repairs.
Quote:
Some engine manufaturers do sell own label fuel additives, but as far as I am aware none sell oil additives or endorse their use because no one has found one that worked so far.
GM had a full line line of additives like GM Part No. 992869 for their current ACDelco supplied EOS which was Part#12345501 previously.
Quote:
a multi-purpose additive concentrate designed to help eliminate lifter sticking, reduce valve train noise, reduce camshaft lobe scuffing, and reduce break-in wear. The use will maintain the additive levels in oil to promote designed-in oil detergency, disperancy and wear protection, especially under severe service conditions such as high load and high operating temperatures.
Over the years companies have looked to the aftermarket to chemical solutions to resolve issues that otherwise cost them a fortune in recalls. A couple of good examples would be..
Subaru using Holt's leak sealer for preventing 2.5 head gasket leaks and Saab with lubeguard red for transmission troubles.
Many companies at one time or another either recommended or supplied themselves an engine oil supplement, cooling system stop leaks, transmission supplements, etc for a verity of reasons.
Basically i am against the wholesale use of additives for no other reason than the feel good factor but if there are specific issues many times there are some products that work very well.
Just because an engine has 75K on the clock doesn't make it an automatic candidate for something like Restore or seal conditioners but it may benefit from something to clean minor varnish and piston ring deposits before they become a problem.
Agreed! Isn't it funny when a car mfg screws up they recommend an additive, or even shortening the published OCI? My point is if engineers designed the perfect engine, and oil companies had the perfect gas and oil, why do the car makers sometimes contradict themselves and recommend an additive, or change to their main't program? Sometimes they learn as they go, or the public does the final testing of their product. Many times the additive they recommend to bail them out saves them big $$$ in warranty repairs.
skyship -
3 strikes and you're out! [wrong, wrong, wrong]
1. We already know that Liqui Moly [Lubro Moly] oils do not have moly. this shows nothing.
2. Moly is and has been used whether there is ZDDP or not.
3. I use great oils. I can not get "better oil". The Lubro Moly helps. Another brand of oil does not make a difference.
3 strikes and you're out! [wrong, wrong, wrong]
1. We already know that Liqui Moly [Lubro Moly] oils do not have moly. this shows nothing.
2. Moly is and has been used whether there is ZDDP or not.
3. I use great oils. I can not get "better oil". The Lubro Moly helps. Another brand of oil does not make a difference.
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looks like liqui moly has one oil with mos2. I don't know if its available in the usa. 10w 40 semi syn.
http://www.liqui-moly.us/liquimoly/produktdb.nsf/id/us_2043.html?Opendocument&land=US
http://www.liqui-moly.us/liquimoly/produktdb.nsf/id/us_2043.html?Opendocument&land=US
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
skyship -
3 strikes and you're out! [wrong, wrong, wrong]
1. We already know that Liqui Moly [Lubro Moly] oils do not have moly. this shows nothing.
2. Moly is and has been used whether there is ZDDP or not.
3. I use great oils. I can not get "better oil". The Lubro Moly helps. Another brand of oil does not make a difference.
1/ I did not say LM oils don't have Moly in, some do and some don't. They do have one oil that has a higher than normal Moly content.
2/ Moly content is more common in high quality oils that have a reduced Zinc content. The majority of oils still contain Zinc.
2/ Do you know the exact contents of your oil, as it might contain Moly already in which case you are wasting money trying to add more??
I can never understand why folks think that if an additive used as part of the balanced additives pack of an oil works, that adding an excessive amount of the same additive will improve things. The add pack of a modern oil is a very finely balanced chemical engineering product where the interactions between the different chemicals determines how it works and to throw in a can of snake oil that has never been independently tested by the mainstream certification folks or recommended by the engine manufacturer is crazy.
skyship -
3 strikes and you're out! [wrong, wrong, wrong]
1. We already know that Liqui Moly [Lubro Moly] oils do not have moly. this shows nothing.
2. Moly is and has been used whether there is ZDDP or not.
3. I use great oils. I can not get "better oil". The Lubro Moly helps. Another brand of oil does not make a difference.
1/ I did not say LM oils don't have Moly in, some do and some don't. They do have one oil that has a higher than normal Moly content.
2/ Moly content is more common in high quality oils that have a reduced Zinc content. The majority of oils still contain Zinc.
2/ Do you know the exact contents of your oil, as it might contain Moly already in which case you are wasting money trying to add more??
I can never understand why folks think that if an additive used as part of the balanced additives pack of an oil works, that adding an excessive amount of the same additive will improve things. The add pack of a modern oil is a very finely balanced chemical engineering product where the interactions between the different chemicals determines how it works and to throw in a can of snake oil that has never been independently tested by the mainstream certification folks or recommended by the engine manufacturer is crazy.
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
skyship -
3 strikes and you're out! [wrong, wrong, wrong]
1. We already know that Liqui Moly [Lubro Moly] oils do not have moly. this shows nothing.
2. Moly is and has been used whether there is ZDDP or not.
3. I use great oils. I can not get "better oil". The Lubro Moly helps. Another brand of oil does not make a difference.
Actually liqui-moly makes a 10w-40 with their moly in it. The oil itself looks blackish like the additive does. I have a jug in my basement right now actually.
Honestly,skyship is sounding like a broken record. He posts in every thread I've seen lately that seafoam and mmo are snake oil,oils don't need additives and blah blah blah.
I've got him on ignore because he adds nothing to a discussion.
Personally I've used this product and it has helped fuel consumption in EVERYTHING I add it to. Everything. So whether an oils additive package is so perfectly formulated why is it when I add this snake oil my mileage increases.
I KNOW. SNAKE OIL IS SO SUPER SLICK IT'S REDUCING THE FRICTION. NICE. Perhaps liqui-moly should advertise in big letters "contains snake oil".
Betcha it sells.
skyship -
3 strikes and you're out! [wrong, wrong, wrong]
1. We already know that Liqui Moly [Lubro Moly] oils do not have moly. this shows nothing.
2. Moly is and has been used whether there is ZDDP or not.
3. I use great oils. I can not get "better oil". The Lubro Moly helps. Another brand of oil does not make a difference.
Actually liqui-moly makes a 10w-40 with their moly in it. The oil itself looks blackish like the additive does. I have a jug in my basement right now actually.
Honestly,skyship is sounding like a broken record. He posts in every thread I've seen lately that seafoam and mmo are snake oil,oils don't need additives and blah blah blah.
I've got him on ignore because he adds nothing to a discussion.
Personally I've used this product and it has helped fuel consumption in EVERYTHING I add it to. Everything. So whether an oils additive package is so perfectly formulated why is it when I add this snake oil my mileage increases.
I KNOW. SNAKE OIL IS SO SUPER SLICK IT'S REDUCING THE FRICTION. NICE. Perhaps liqui-moly should advertise in big letters "contains snake oil".
Betcha it sells.
Originally Posted By: skyship
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
skyship -
3 strikes and you're out! [wrong, wrong, wrong]
1. We already know that Liqui Moly [Lubro Moly] oils do not have moly. this shows nothing.
2. Moly is and has been used whether there is ZDDP or not.
3. I use great oils. I can not get "better oil". The Lubro Moly helps. Another brand of oil does not make a difference.
1/ I did not say LM oils don't have Moly in, some do and some don't. They do have one oil that has a higher than normal Moly content.
2/ Moly content is more common in high quality oils that have a reduced Zinc content. The majority of oils still contain Zinc.
2/ Do you know the exact contents of your oil, as it might contain Moly already in which case you are wasting money trying to add more??
I can never understand why folks think that if an additive used as part of the balanced additives pack of an oil works, that adding an excessive amount of the same additive will improve things. The add pack of a modern oil is a very finely balanced chemical engineering product where the interactions between the different chemicals determines how it works and to throw in a can of snake oil that has never been independently tested by the mainstream certification folks or recommended by the engine manufacturer is crazy.
Still at it? I'll play. Are all oils the very best a company can make, or is blending to a price point and profit a factor? I'll give you a hint, every oil company can make a better product, yes every oil company. Can you show me one oil that suffers a bad chemical reaction/interaction or is thrown out of chemical balance from the addition of MoS2? Thanks.
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
skyship -
3 strikes and you're out! [wrong, wrong, wrong]
1. We already know that Liqui Moly [Lubro Moly] oils do not have moly. this shows nothing.
2. Moly is and has been used whether there is ZDDP or not.
3. I use great oils. I can not get "better oil". The Lubro Moly helps. Another brand of oil does not make a difference.
1/ I did not say LM oils don't have Moly in, some do and some don't. They do have one oil that has a higher than normal Moly content.
2/ Moly content is more common in high quality oils that have a reduced Zinc content. The majority of oils still contain Zinc.
2/ Do you know the exact contents of your oil, as it might contain Moly already in which case you are wasting money trying to add more??
I can never understand why folks think that if an additive used as part of the balanced additives pack of an oil works, that adding an excessive amount of the same additive will improve things. The add pack of a modern oil is a very finely balanced chemical engineering product where the interactions between the different chemicals determines how it works and to throw in a can of snake oil that has never been independently tested by the mainstream certification folks or recommended by the engine manufacturer is crazy.
Still at it? I'll play. Are all oils the very best a company can make, or is blending to a price point and profit a factor? I'll give you a hint, every oil company can make a better product, yes every oil company. Can you show me one oil that suffers a bad chemical reaction/interaction or is thrown out of chemical balance from the addition of MoS2? Thanks.
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