ILSAC GF6 Chain Wear Test

[loneryder]

So let me get this straight. In order to try to meet the stringent EPA CAFE standards, Auto companies use Direct Injection which gets more mileage. But the consequence of that is more Soot in the environment. Soot that gas engines did not produce before. So what have they accomplished??

I think a lot of this LSPI is caused by transmission software that tries to to shift into the highest gear as early as possible. I have noticed this with a couple of rental cars. Let up on the gas and it shifts into the highest gear. Then you need to accelerate and there is nothing while it figures out what gear to shift to. So it's laid in the oil companies lap to try to fix it??

 

[Gene K]

So let me get this straight. In order to try to meet the stringent EPA CAFE standards, Auto companies use Direct Injection which gets more mileage. But the consequence of that is more Soot in the environment. Soot that gas engines did not produce before. So what have they accomplished??

I think a lot of this LSPI is caused by transmission software that tries to to shift into the highest gear as early as possible. I have noticed this with a couple of rental cars. Let up on the gas and it shifts into the highest gear. Then you need to accelerate and there is nothing while it figures out what gear to shift to. So it's laid in the oil companies lap to try to fix it??

Not trying to defend anything or support any agenda (please don't take this in a direction that will result in a thread lock) but I've seen a study using the North Carolina Government Fleet that said the gains in C02 reduction were greater than the loss from soot. The study GDI was a net gain even without a Particulate Filter.

Again not trying to support any agenda and I don't have a link handy it's just the only thing I've read on it.

 

[ZeeOSix]

So let me get this straight. In order to try to meet the stringent EPA CAFE standards, Auto companies use Direct Injection which gets more mileage. But the consequence of that is more Soot in the environment. Soot that gas engines did not produce before. So what have they accomplished??

I've cleaned the inside of the exhaust tips on non-GDI (regular port injection) and GDI cars, and the GDI car (not mine) literally had a 1/16" layer of black soot on the inside of the exhaust tip after 5000 miles. The non-GDI car barely had any soot build up after 5000 miles. I don't currently own any GDI vehicle, don't know if I really want to.

 

[Gene K]

I think

I've cleaned the inside of the exhaust tips on non-GDI (regular port injection) and GDI cars, and the GDI car (not mine) literally had a 1/16" layer of black soot on the inside of the exhaust tip after 5000 miles. The non-GDI car barely had any soot build up after 5000 miles. I don't currently own any GDI vehicle, don't know if I really want to.

Should see the inside of a truck stack after a million miles or so. I've said before we learned to deal with soot in diesel oil and we will learn to deal with it in gasoline oil.

I don't think GDI is going anywhere anytime soon. It has to many advantages and with the regulatory climate they can't wait 80 years for it to become dominant like they did after Duesenberg brought DOHC 4V to production American Cars.

 

[Gene K]

timing belts are replaced at regular intervals and aren't as hard on oil as a timing chain

So, for those like me, can someone explain if SP/GF6 is better than SN/GF5? And if yes, is it a measurable improvement?

Since Mobil says they were there almost a decade ago I would say it depends. It doesn't raise the roof, it raises the floor.

 

[KCJeep]

I guess Ford had a better idea.

Uh-oh. That's where traditionally Ford gets in trouble.

 

[Danno]

Should see the inside of a truck stack after a million miles or so. I've said before we learned to deal with soot in diesel oil and we will learn to deal with it in gasoline oil.

The newer DEF equipped Class 8s have nowhere near the soot vs a pre-2010 Class 8. If the truck's emissions systems are working as intended by the manufacturer, there is effectively no soot.

 

[mpgo4th]

It could effect a wet belt like the Ford 1.0 Ecoboost. I assume Ford WSS-M2C948-B has some sort of requirement for belt compatibility.

Not sure if you saw these already but Ford has redone all of there specs since SP has been released.

 

[mpgo4th]

The newer DEF equipped Class 8s have nowhere near the soot vs a pre-2010 Class 8. If the truck's emissions systems are working as intended by the manufacturer, there is effectively no soot.

That is 100% true. Partly because of the formulation of CK-4 diesel oil’s leaving less deposits and mostly because of the diesel particulate filter. It’s effectively a filter on the end of a cigarette that stops solid particles. Big steps from 20 years ago!

 

[Gene K]

Not sure if you saw these already but Ford has redone all of there specs since SP has been released.

I don't think any of those are the correct spec for the 5W-20 for the 1.0 Ecoboost. I don't think Ford USA required it.

I think 960, 961, 962 and 963 are just the regular 5W-20, 5W-30, 0W-20 and 0W-30 specs. I believe M2C948B1 normally requires an ACEA C2 as a prerequisite so I doubt a change in USA standards would effect it.

 

[Gene K]

The newer DEF equipped Class 8s have nowhere near the soot vs a pre-2010 Class 8. If the truck's emissions systems are working as intended by the manufacturer, there is effectively no soot.

Well my pre-EGR engines definitely make soot.

 

[Blagoje]

So let me get this straight. In order to try to meet the stringent EPA CAFE standards, Auto companies use Direct Injection which gets more mileage. But the consequence of that is more Soot in the environment. Soot that gas engines did not produce before. So what have they accomplished??

I think a lot of this LSPI is caused by transmission software that tries to to shift into the highest gear as early as possible. I have noticed this with a couple of rental cars. Let up on the gas and it shifts into the highest gear. Then you need to accelerate and there is nothing while it figures out what gear to shift to. So it's laid in the oil companies lap to try to fix it??

Much of the carbon soot from a direct injection engine ends up in the crankcase so that it does not contribute to tailpipe emissions, see article linked below:

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/51/soot-oil-engine

My post from earlier in this thread makes reference to the concern:

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/ilsac-gf6-chain-wear-test.331413/post-5514858

 

[blingo]

No "trash-can" exists in an engine to collect soot "so that it does not contribute to tailpipe emissions" and what ends up in the oil is not much but next to nothing of course. Exhaust gas for recirculation can be collected post DPF and the EPA will certainly be last to complain.

What they are falsely treating as a trash-can must be the wax-accumulator.

 

[wemay]

My first few Hyundai's developed incredible soot, including our current Santa Fe Sport T-GDi. The vehicles (Hyundai, KIA and VW - all Direct Injection) bought since that Santa Fe have had no soot to very little. The Santa Fe, for some reason, doesn't soot as much as it used to but still does at a level where it gets a cleaning.

 

[The Critic]

My 5.7 HEMI loves the Mobil 1 FS 0W-40. I can't believe the amount of "MDS will not work" to "tight tolerances" BS that I've read about these engines. It's not a V12 Ferarri engine where the manufacturer used liquid nitrogen to shrink certain components to fit together. And even with all that, those Ferrari engines spec at least 5W-40 ACEA A3 oils. The HEMI is an ancient design manufactured by Crysler (err FCA) in a factory where most of the people who assemble that engine are a step or two away from clinical depression and surgical precision and laboratory level cleanliness are the last things on their minds. And then they have the audacity to spec 5W-20 and paper media oil filter smaller than a bier can for a 5.7-liter motor that's meant for towing duties and lugging around a 5800 lbs vehicle. Oh, and it doesn't have an oil cooler either. Did you guys see UOAs on new HEMI engines? Wear metals swim in there like there is no tomorrow. But guess what, an oil that's 11.5 ~ 12 cSt@100C will work just fine in there and give me a bit more protection.

Ever scan your PCM? I am curious if you have a stored P1521 fault.

 

[Blagoje]

No "trash-can" exists in an engine to collect soot "so that it does not contribute to tailpipe emissions" and what ends up in the oil is not much but next to nothing of course. Exhaust gas for recirculation can be collected post DPF and the EPA will certainly be last to complain.

What they are falsely treating as a trash-can must be the wax-accumulator.

My gasoline powered direct injection engine does not have a diesel particulate filter (DPF) and I have the results of multiple oil changes and oil filters cut open that reflect the fact that my GDI engine produces an excess of carbon soot that ends up in the oil system. I am not the only person who has had such results from a GDI engine, it has become a well known trait of this engine system.

If you would like to dispute this then please create your own thread but do not hijack this one thinking that the notion has not been substantiated and is thus invalid.

 

[blingo]

With your GDI you're looking at ancient heavy duty diesels to find nonsense around soot dumped internally, affirm it in your own words and then complain? Those shouldn't even need timing chains as they can have gears like a classic Landcruiser or Chaika.
GDI sans GPF have serious problems with particle number concentrations intheir exhaust emissions. Of course a tiny fraction of those may end up in oil. That's not to be disputed, that's to be treated. Aftertreated primarily.

 

[captno4]

Ever scan your PCM? I am curious if you have a stored P1521 fault.

Wouldn't that throw the CEL? When we first started switching over to 5.7 Chargers from Crown Vics in 2011 we had this issue pop up. Our shop had used Rotella 15w-40 like they did on the Crown Vics and we got a check engine light. I would not have believed the code of "improper oil viscosity" if I had not seen it with my own eyes. They dumped the oil and replaced it with 5w-20 and we have not had an issue since then.....well at least with that particular code!

 

[Deleted member 89374]

Ever scan your PCM? I am curious if you have a stored P1521 fault.

I did, and I don't have any stored error codes. Also, FCA disabled oil viscosity detection from the factory for RAM trucks, at least for the 1500. However, if anyone is so inclined, they can re-enable it, especially on older trucks that don't need to have their PCM unlocked. I'm curious though how well it works, especially if you use something like an ILSAC GF6 5W-30 oil. It will probably detect Rotella Gas Truck 5W-30 or Rotella T6 Multi-Vehicle 5W-30, but not so much PUP or Castrol 5W-30 oils, or M1 for that matter.

 

[madeej11]

The VW 1.4 has a belt. The previous version had a chain but they "improved" it by switching to a lifetime belt. Their words, not mine. Even though it's lifetime the unofficial replacement interval seems to be 150k

Sure because that's engine replacement time too.