Lubrication Engineers 8130?

LM

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USA
Anyone have any experience/heard anything about this oil? My interest comes from SNIP I've heard somewhat mixed opinions wrt to how well Falex Wear ASTM D-2670 and the TFOUT oxidation test ASTM D-4742 relate to engine wear Here are some specs, a bit dated (Apr 2002) Heavy-duty engine oil made from select synthetic & paraffinic oils Contains MONOLEC, LE's exclusive wear-reducing additive reduces wear by up to 24.2 % per radioacive ring wear tests Shear-stable viscosity modifier has been incorporated to achieve the high VI to span the SAE 10W-30 grade Gravity 32.4 Viscosity, SUS @ 100 F 383.5 SUS @ 210 F 66.32 cSt @ 40 C 75.38 cSt @ 100 C 11.80 cP @ -20 C, ASTM D-5293 3,500 max cP @ -30 C, ASTM D-4684 60,000 max HTHS Viscosity @ 150 C, cP, ASTM D-4683 2.9 min Viscosity Index 145 Color Red Flash Pt, F (C) 425 (218) Pour Pt, F (C) -33 (-36) TBN, ASTM D-2896 10.0 Sulfated Ash, Mass %, ASTM D-874 1.0 Specs Exceeded: API, CF, CH-4/SH Caterpillar TO-2 MIL-L-2104E CCMC D4, D5, G4, G5, PD2 MIL-L-46152E Daimler Benz 226.1 & 227.1 Mack EO-M Plus VW 500.00 & 501.01 GM 6094M Allison C-4 Fluid Ford ESE-M2C-153E Volvo VDS Other notes: - 8130 is very similar to 8800. - the add pak is almost the same - the base oil is the same - both have phosphorus. SNIP Benefits of LE's Passenger Car Engine Oils are: Improved fuel efficiency Increased engine life High detergency that keeps engine clean Easier cold temperature starts Protection against high temperature Exceeds manufacturers specifications 8130 MONOLEC® ULTRA-BLEND Engine Oil (SAE 10W-30) Unsurpassed performance Effective cold cranking at low ambient temperatures Excellent performance at higher temperatures Unique blend of select synthetic and paraffinic base oils. 8530 MONOLEC® SPB Engine Oil (SAE 5W-30) High quality blend of synthetic and paraffinic base oils. "All season" performance for gasoline engines in automobiles and light duty trucks Exceeds the most recent energy-conserving ILSAC GF-2 and API SJ specifications 8800 MONOLEC® ULTRA Engine Oil Long -drain SAE 15W-40 Designed for year-round extended drain service in diesel and gasoline engines for fleet and industrial use No other petroleum lubricating oil, regardless of price, will be found superior in condition to LE's 8800 MONOLEC® ULTRA Engine Oil at the end any given period of use Available Grades : Product # SAE Grade TBN 8530 5W-30 6.2 8130 10W-30 10.0 8800 15W-40 10.0 [ December 09, 2002, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: dragboat ]
 

Al

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Elizabethtown, Pa
Never heard of it. I think with so many good oils around with proven results it would be hard to try an oil with an unrecognized reputation (at least by me [Big Grin] ). I am already backlogged with 3 oils that are awaiting analysis.
 
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I couldn't help but laugh while reading the specs on this oil. By virtually any measure, this is a sub-standard oil. Any number of Group II based 10w30 oils will have better numbers than this oil. Why is there no API gas engine rating listed (like "SJ" or "SL")? Is this meant to be a diesel engine oil only? The specs listed would tend to indicate so.
 

LM

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It carries an API SH rating (AFAIK, it can't meet SJ due to its phosphorus content) [dragboat - is it okay to post the core content below (previously snipped)? for context on Falex Wear ASTM D-2670 and the TFOUT oxidation test ASTM D-4742 - I'd like to see critique of it - thanks] The Falex test machine is very accurate and can record wear at .0000556 . It uses a pin and vee blocks. The pin rotates at 290 rpm and the vee blocks sandwich against it wile it is submerged in the test oil. An automatic loading gear keeps the set psi at a given pressure. If the wear on the pin causes the psi to fall the automatic loading gear increases one click to keep the psi at the set pressure. There are two ways to fail the test. (1) if the wear is so great that the loading gear can?t keep up with the wear at the pin then that is a fail. (2) if the pin and vee blocks seize that is a fail. The smaller number of teeth shows the lower wear on the pin. The oxidation test simulates the effects of an oil in our engines. The higher number shows an oils ability to resist oxidation for longer periods. [Most of these appear to be mid to heavier viscs] OIL PASS/FAIL TEETH TFOUT Amoco Premier Fail ------- 265 Cat Diesel Fail ------- 209 Chevron Delo 400 Fail ------- 342 Mobil Delvac 1300 Super Pass 18 258 Mystic JT-8 Fail ------- 148 Shaffer Supreme 7000 Fail ------- 253 Shell Rotella T Fail ------- 163 Premium Blue 2000 Fail ------- 291 Amoco 300 Fail ------- 209 Amsoil Pass 9 219 Case Fail ------- 190 Castrol RX Super Fail ------- 178 Citgo Ditgard 500 Fail ------- 222 Coastal Unilube Fleet Fail ------- 134 Bobil Delvac 1230 SAE 30 Fail ------- 107 Moper Fail ------- 121 Motorcraft Fail ------- 144 Mr. Goodwrench Pass 16 137 Pennzoil Long-life Pass 17 331 Shell Rimula Super HPDEO Pass 13 227 Shell Rimula-X HPDEO Fail ------- 86 Shell Rotella T SAE 30 Fail ------- 151 Tech 2000 Fail ------- 140 Total Rubia Diesel 4000 Fail ------- 130 Universal SHPD Pass 13 153 Premium Blue Pass 16 361 Castrol Syntec SAE 5w30 Pass 13 195 Castrol Super Fleet Pass 16 243 Mobil-1 Fail ------- 180 Lubrication Engineers 8800 Pass 5 323 Lubrication Engineers SAE 30 Pass 5 253
 
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quote:
Originally posted by LM: It carries an API SH rating (AFAIK, it can't meet SJ due to its phosphorus content)
The API "S" categories, like SJ and SL, don't have a phosphorus content requirement, otherwise the Rotella T Synthetic I'm using couldn't carry the SL rating. It's only the ILSAC GF-3 rating that restricts phosphorous. I think this Falex wear test is a "smoke and mirror" snake oil sales tactic to try and push an inferior product. The current gas engine spec is SL and this oil is rated SH? Who's kidding whom?
 

LM

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I was most interested in the validity/non-validity of the Falex & TFout tests, as there are so many different oil perf characteristics that can be tested (and/or misrepresented). I wonder how Falex might compare to Timken, if at all? I should have more accurately stated it exceeded SH in some dated lit. I was (incorrectly!) told by someone that phosphorus content precludes a SJ or SL rating, and am fuzzy wrt reading this forum as to what zinc/phos compound, or other AW chem (if any) that preclude SJ/SL rating
 
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5,336
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London, AR
quote:
Originally posted by LM: Anyone have any experience/heard anything about this oil?
I looked at using this oil in a PSD about 4 years ago. The LE8800 is a top rated oil. It can shine with the best of the oils at analysis time. I have seem about 10 analysis doing extended drains and the results were very good. The reason that I did not use it was availability and cost. Also a OTC was much easier to procure at that time. Then I started using Schaffer's as I can buy $250 and get free shipping and the analysis on this oil couldn't be better in my truck. So I always have an ample supply. But don't discount the LE as snake oil or inferior because of the numbers. A highly regarded oil in the industrial/trucking sector. [Cheers!]
 
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Oklahoma
LM.Yeah go ahead and post it.I will put it back in the original post if you want ,just let me know "dragboat - is it okay to post the core content below (previously snipped)? for context on Falex Wear ASTM D-2670 and the TFOUT oxidation test ASTM D-4742 - I'd like to see critique of it - thanks"
 
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1,933
Location
Oklahoma
quote:
Originally posted by 59 Vetteman:
quote:
Originally posted by LM: Anyone have any experience/heard anything about this oil?
I looked at using this oil in a PSD about 4 years ago. The LE8800 is a top rated oil. It can shine with the best of the oils at analysis time. I have seem about 10 analysis doing extended drains and the results were very good. The reason that I did not use it was availability and cost. Also a OTC was much easier to procure at that time. Then I started using Schaffer's as I can buy $250 and get free shipping and the analysis on this oil couldn't be better in my truck. So I always have an ample supply. But don't discount the LE as snake oil or inferior because of the numbers. A highly regarded oil in the industrial/trucking sector. [Cheers!]

I see/heard from others than the LE site many use it in Dirt Track cars wih a high degree of success,the prices I have seen is 4.95 per quart,,betting that price might could be beat a little bit.
 

LM

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Hey dragboat. No need to. I belatedly realized it was an "auto" edit. It snipped the really long URL - which is understandable - but then it snipped the short URL and actually cut & pasted the page's content into my post. Thanks, tho. Anyway, I first heard about LE at an auto machine shop I get parts at - like 59 Vetteman said - from a trucker. I first thought the guy was talking about the _profession_ of "Lubrication Engineer." I think it can be ordered for ~$90 - $100 for 6 gallons, + shpg. I just wanted to get perspective on why so many well-regarded oils failed the Falex test. ----- Here another google post/excerpt: "1) Falex is a company that sells tribometers, devices that test/measure friction and/or wear. They make many types and configurations of these machines, such as: Block on Ring; Pin on Disk: and Pin and V-Block 2) The four ball wear test is severe and does NOT correlate to engine tests. It is of some use in step loading EP (extreme presure)testing. 3) The Falex Pin and V-block does have a nice correlation to high temperature camshaft wear as in the "Sequence IIIE" engine test ..........Edward B. Kollin Exxon Research and Engineering Advanced Fuels and Lubes Group" ----- The oxidation portion seems to jibe fairly well with diesel ratings. Lance "LM.Yeah go ahead and post it.I will put it back in the original post if you want ,just let me know"
 
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Wrightwood CA
OK guys, first of all I work for Lubrication Engineers (24 years)and I will not try and sell anyone anything on this sight. A friend told me about this thread and said that I might want to set things straight. First, some of the API classifications are not up to date. For instance the 8530 is ILSAC GF-3, API SL. So you can see that the info that has been posted here is not quite up to date. Don't be fooled by ones that have not heard of the (LE)Lubrication Engineers products. They have been in the commercial industry since 1951 and market their lubes in 60 other countries besides the USA. They are known as the "Leaders in Lubrication" and have the very best quality lubes in the world. Enough about the LE oil. I want to set the record straight about the Falex wear test so that everyone will see that it is not a dog and pony test, but a well known and used test by many top labs and oil companies for bench testing oils. Why Lubrication Engineers chooses to use the type of testing rigs that they use. The SRV ASTM D-5707 is a test used for evaluating extreme pressure (EP) properties of all kinds of oils and greases. The SRV is also used for Wear testing. In the body of this report you will see that the SRV test is the best type of test for gear oil testing. Lubrication Engineers uses many different tests depending on the type of oil to be tested and where they will be used. LE uses the SRV and 4-ball tests when evaluating their gear oils for wear and EP capabilities. Below are the reasons why LE had decided on using those specific tests. As you can see LE is not the only company that uses the SRV test. 1. In Castrol's general reference guide, page 3---9 They say "The SRV tester was developed to determine the coefficient of friction, antiwear and EP properties of lubricants under boundary and mixed film condition. Oils that they test on the SRV are; 2 Gear oils 2 Greases 2. Plint Tribology testing equipment manual for tribologists page 13 says; Typical applications for the TE 77 high frequency Friction Machine (SRV) are; 1. Screening Tests for Crankcase and Gearbox Lubricants. 2. Fundamental Lubricant Chemistry Studies 3. Lubricant Formulation Studies 4. Lubricity Testing for Fuels and Lubricants 5. Wear and Liquid Corrosion Studies. 6. Stick-Slip Testing of Industrial Lubricants 7. Boundary Friction Evaluation 8. Grease Evaluation for EP, Anti-Wear and Scuffing properties. 9. Friction, Wear and Failure Testing of Soft and Hard Coatings and Films. 10. Dry and Lubricated Friction and Wear Testing 11. Wear Testing of Engine components; Cam/Follower, Ring/Liner, Piston Skirt, Valve Train, Fuel Pump. 12. |Fretting Wear Testing. These are just a few types of tests that are done on the SRV type test machine in addition to the Grease for EP testing that was posted above. In an article called "Machines and Methodologies for Testing Extreme Pressure and Anti-Wear Properties of Lubricants" Test machines are evaluated to find the best type of tester. Group 1 Stationary Point of Contact These are rigs in which the point of contact is stationary on one of the surfaces. They all have simple specimen geometries. Examples include; Falex 4-Ball Timken Reichert Group 2 Moving Point of Contact; These are rigs where the point of contact moves over both surfaces. This includes rigs using actual gears and cams as well as twin-disk machines. FZG IAE Ryder MIRA Cam and Follower Group 3 Stationary Point of Contact/Minimal Energy Pulse/Independently Thermally Controlled; These are test machines in which sliding velocities are maintained at low levels in order to minimize frictional heating and in order to promote boundary lubrication regimes. They are the short stroke reciprocation rigs and the two types most commonly available are as follows; Optimol SRV Plint TE 77 By comparison with Group 2 machines, the Group 3 machines (except in the case of the piston Ring on Cylinder Liner contact near stroke end) do not set out to emulate the mechanics of the real contact to be investigated, but aim to simulate the intimate contact conditions in a controllable and accessible way. In this respect, these machines fulfill the requirements of an effective bench test that is they are simulators of real contacts. In his conclusion he said, "Group 1 machines (4-ball, Falex, Timken, Reichert) do not provide an adequate emulation or simulation of real contacts subject to boundary or mixed lubrication regimes. It is not necessary to emulate the mechanics of the contact in order to provide an adequate bench test simulation for assessment of lubricant/additive performance. A third generic group of bench test machines is identified. These machines are primarily simulators and not emulators. These machines provide better experimental control and more flexibility than the latter two Groups. This allows greater insight into the processes taking place within the contact zone." He further states that " The capabilities of the test machine groups can be summarized as follows;" Machines Real Contacts Emulated-Real Contacts Simulated Group 1 Nil--Nil Group 2 Gear Cam/Follower--Nil Group 3 Ring/Liner--Gear Cam/Follower References; 1. Plint M A Alliston-Greiner A F: Extreme pressure and anti-wear properties of lubricants: A critical study of current test methods and suggestions for the future. 2. Bell J C: Critical physical conditions in the lubrication of automotive valve train systems: Tribology international Vol 24 No 2 1991 3. Mills T N and Cameron A: Basic studies on boundary, EP and piston-ring lubrication using a special apparatus: ASLE Transactions Vol 25 117-124. 4. Cooper D and Moore A J: The influence of boundary films on lubricant anti scuffing performance. 5. Alliston-Greiner A F: Testing extreme pressure and anti-wear performance of gear lubricants: ImechE Vol 205 June 1991 6. Cooper D and Moore A J: Wear control in automotive diesel engines: Austrib 94 Perth. Definitions; Emulate --- To strive to equal Simulated --- An apparatus that generates test conditions approximation actual or operational conditions. This shows that LE uses the latest, most reliable and accurate tests available anywhere today. I hope that this helps for understanding the tests that are used for evaluating oil and I hope to be able to assist in oil issues in the future if called opon. Kevin Dinwiddie Tribologist Member STLE [ December 11, 2002, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: Kevin Dinwiddie ]
 
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Welcome Kevin, I wondered where you had gone, lost in Noria land I thought. [Frown] I recently recommended your products to a customer needing a custom oil in the Mercury engine realm. [Wink] Can't wait till you get into the mix here ! [Cheers!] Terry
 

LM

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USA
Kevin - just wanted to say thanks for the detailed response. What are 8130's current specs? And does it perform similarly to 8800 wrt to Falex and TFOUT, the latter mostly due to the add pkg? And/or do 8130 & 8150 use the same base stock, albeit w/diff add pkg's? Lance
 
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