ILSAC GF6 Chain Wear Test

[Deleted member 89374]

The PCV has been around for over 50 years. There is no conspiracy here.

I know it's been around since the 70s, however, coupled with GDI, it made many people cry that owned one. Especially BMW and VW owners that needed their intake valves blasted with walnut shells. I don't run a catch can in any of our vehicles, but I use CRC intake valve deposit cleaner once a year or every 10,000 miles on the 2.4 GDI engine.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I like this part where he says:

Thinning engine oils is an ongoing trend because of the fuel economy advancements. However, this inclination causes some concerns. Temperature’s effect on viscosity is well documented. At operating temperatures, the engine is protected from friction and wear by a thin oil film. However, if overheating occurs, the thin oil film will degrade and could conceivably result in devastating wear to the engine. Another disadvantage of thinner oils is that abrasive soot and wears debris particulate matter, equal to or greater than the thickness of the oil film, will cause wear4. This underscores the importance of oil filters to prevent wear debris from entering the oil film. As the thin oil trend continues, ILSAC GF-6 must implement standards which balance both engine performance and robustness.

This further proves thicker oils protect better and thinner oils are for fuel economy only.

Yep, and to add ... the hydrodynamic MOFT oil film caused by the viscosity is the main wear protection factor between moving parts, and "film strength" due to anti-wear/anti-friction additives only helps mitigate/reduce wear AFTER the MOFT goes to zero and metal-to-metal contact occurs. It's the most basic thing to understand in tribology.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Yep, and to add ... the hydrodynamic MOFT oil film caused by the viscosity is the main wear protection factor between moving parts, and "film strength" due to anti-wear/anti-friction additives only helps mitigate/reduce wear AFTER metal-to-metal contact occurs. It's the most basic thing to understand in tribology.

Shannow said it very well too one time. Viscosity is the first protection against wear. Additives kick in if the oil film becomes too thin and breaks.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Keep in mind this is the opinion of a couple of guys writing in a Indian magazine. It is not necessarily the opinion of the ASTM or API. They didn’t “prove” anything.

Dr Raj Shah is a chemical engineer for Kohler. It's not like he's just some cat writing for the National Enquirer.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Dr Raj Shah is a chemical engineer for Kohler. It's not like he's just some cat writing for the National Enquirer.

What?! ... you mean they found a couple of guys who know about oil and tribology to write that article instead of pulling a couple of random dudes off the street, lol.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

This further proves thicker oils protect better and thinner oils are for fuel economy only.

My 5.7 HEMI loves the Mobil 1 FS 0W-40. I can't believe the amount of "MDS will not work" to "tight tolerances" BS that I've read about these engines. It's not a V12 Ferarri engine where the manufacturer used liquid nitrogen to shrink certain components to fit together. And even with all that, those Ferrari engines spec at least 5W-40 ACEA A3 oils. The HEMI is an ancient design manufactured by Crysler (err FCA) in a factory where most of the people who assemble that engine are a step or two away from clinical depression and surgical precision and laboratory level cleanliness are the last things on their minds. And then they have the audacity to spec 5W-20 and paper media oil filter smaller than a bier can for a 5.7-liter motor that's meant for towing duties and lugging around a 5800 lbs vehicle. Oh, and it doesn't have an oil cooler either. Did you guys see UOAs on new HEMI engines? Wear metals swim in there like there is no tomorrow. But guess what, an oil that's 11.5 ~ 12 cSt@100C will work just fine in there and give me a bit more protection.

 

[aquariuscsm]

What?! ... you mean they found a couple of guys who know about oil and tribology to write that article instead of pulling a couple of random dudes off the street, lol.

Those darn chemical engineers, they think they're so smart, huh! Haha!

 

[Snagglefoot]

Just a reminder that the API will be awarding the SP designations to Xw20 oils as well. They have to pass the ASTM chain wear test. Also, next year is the 20th anniversary of Ford spec’ing xw20 motor oil. The original post is about the test but this thread has turned into a typical thick thin discussion. Sayonara.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

Just a reminder that the API will be awarding the SP designations to Xw20 oils as well. They have to pass the ASTM chain wear test. Also, next year is the 20th anniversary of Ford spec’ing xw20 motor oil. The original post is about the test but this thread has turned into a typical thick thin discussion. Sianara.

Is that timing chain test about fuel dilution and how the oil deals with it and how well it protects the chain when the oil gets contaminated? Or am I getting this totally wrong?

 

[aquariuscsm]

Just a reminder that the API will be awarding the SP designations to Xw20 oils as well. They have to pass the ASTM chain wear test. Also, next year is the 20th anniversary of Ford spec’ing xw20 motor oil. The original post is about the test but this thread has turned into a typical thick thin discussion. Sianara.

What makes me seriously wonder about all the Ford timing chains that keep going kaboom (and I've never heard of an engine wearing out a timing chain before),is it the thin Ford spec oil, or a bad design by Ford? Anyone here in the automotive industry will know what I'm talking about.

But thinner viscosities were part of the inserted article in the post, citing more aggressive additive chemistry was needed to make up for the thinner viscosity. I'm never trying to argue,I honestly find this kind've stuff fascinating! That's why were all here .

 

[Deleted member 89374]

What makes me seriously wonder about all the Ford timing chains that keep going kaboom (and I've never heard of an engine wearing out a timing chain before),is it the thin Ford spec oil, or a bad design by Ford? Anyone here in the automotive industry will know what I'm talking about.

And how is that working out for Ford? Does it help their CAFE or is it so-so, about like everyone else's?

 

[Gene K]

I know it's been around since the 70s, however, coupled with GDI, it made many people cry that owned one. Especially BMW and VW owners that needed their intake valves blasted with walnut shells. I don't run a catch can in any of our vehicles, but I use CRC intake valve deposit cleaner once a year or every 10,000 miles on the 2.4 GDI engine.

Many US Manufacturers have been using the PCV Valve since the 50's on some models in some markets. I believe they used a road draft tube to that point. GM made them standard in 1963. GM invented them in WWII for the Stuart Tank.

The intake vacuum helps with ring seal. It's a low tech much less effective version of the vaccum pump used on race cars. PCV are not all bad.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

PCV are not all bad.

Thank you for all the good information. You know a lot about engines and cars and I'm here to learn. I was talking about the PCV when combined with GDI. Would you recommend installing an oil catch can? I do spray a can of CRC intake valve cleaner for GDI per their instructions in my 2.4 GDI motor about every 10,000 miles to try and keep the intake valves clean. I have no idea if that's enough though. The car runs smooth. Well, that engine feels more like an old school NA Diesel motor from the late 80s / early 90s.

 

[blingo]

So, while some clearence somewhere may be opened up for the benefit of MOFT, MOFT and MOFT first, the piston ring gaps absolutely should be narrowed down in the GF-6 era? Protecting chains in these modern vehicles became really controversial. So many things to keep in mind for weeks now... to just reverse "the decisions of others end costing us money in repairs or vehicle replacement down the line."

Blackstone will have to comment accordingly: We're sorry to say, but these ring gaps, they just don't make them like that anymore! You should reduce them or try some more MOFT next time. Might as well replace the timing chain while you're at it.

 

[Blagoje]

Also, next year is the 20th anniversary of Ford spec’ing xw20 motor oil. The original post is about the test but this thread has turned into a typical thick thin discussion. Sayonara.

Not just Ford, I bought a new 2001 Honda Civic EX back in 2001 and only afterwards came to find out that it used some new fangled oil... 5w20... what is that?!? That stuff was hard to come by for a little while. I was in the Air Force and got orders to Goodfellow AFB so I moved with my new car from Illinois to the deserts of West Texas. Insufferable weather, I probably should have been putting 5w30 in that engine.

 

[tomcat27]

Most 4 cylinders have went away from timing belts? Whose still make a 4 cylinder with a timing belt? Atleast all of mine have chains.

The VW 1.4 has a belt. The previous version had a chain but they "improved" it by switching to a lifetime belt. Their words, not mine. Even though it's lifetime the unofficial replacement interval seems to be 150k

 

[ka9mnx]

The first PCV I saw was in a '68 350 GM V8. These were screwed into the head requiring removal of the valve cover to replace. My '58 ford with the I6 had a road draft tube. In my opinion PCV is a good thing.
Timing chains have always worn out and they have the same common theme with today's chains. Timing chains wear out from oil abuse and it's more problematic with today's longer OCI's.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

Not just Ford, I bought a new 2001 Honda Civic EX back in 2001 and only afterwards came to find out that it used some new fangled oil... 5w20... what is that?!? That stuff was hard to come by for a little while. I was in the Air Force and got orders to Goodfellow AFB so I moved with my new car from Illinois to the deserts of West Texas. Insufferable weather, I probably should have been putting 5w30 in that engine.

It was nice before mainstream GDI came along. Most people here in the south were running 5W-30 or some even 10W-30 in motors that were calling for 5W-20 back then. I ran 15W-40 in a 1997 Mitsubishi Galant (high mileage - second hand) and 5W-30 in a Mazda 6, also ran 5W-20 in a 3.8L KIA motor (a Sorento), and it was fine. But all of them were low compression port-injected gasoline engines.

Just a reminder that the API will be awarding the SP designations to Xw20 oils as well. They have to pass the ASTM chain wear test. Also, next year is the 20th anniversary of Ford spec’ing xw20 motor oil. The original post is about the test but this thread has turned into a typical thick thin discussion. Sayonara.

That won't be too difficult now, will it? How about they require these oils to pass the timing chain test in 1.5 and 1.6 liter turbo engines that have a timing chain. They also have the pass the test while running on regular 86 octane gas. They should also test for LSPI the same way using those same engines. IIRC at least Hyundai, Honda and GM can provide some of those engines. VW cut corners with their crappy 1.4TSI and switched to a timing chain. God, that engine is cheaply made - it doesn't even have a real intercooler and the valve cover holds the camshafts in place.

 

[Gene K]

What makes me seriously wonder about all the Ford timing chains that keep going kaboom (and I've never heard of an engine wearing out a timing chain before),is it the thin Ford spec oil, or a bad design by Ford? Anyone here in the automotive industry will know what I'm talking about.

But thinner viscosities were part of the inserted article in the post, citing more aggressive additive chemistry was needed to make up for the thinner viscosity. I'm never trying to argue,I honestly find this kind've stuff fascinating! That's why were all here .

Hyundai/Kia TGDI did it to and their preferred Grade is 5W-40.

Besides the 3.5EB F150 Engine has always speced 5W-30 although you can make the case USA 5W-30 is just a 5W-20 with lower quality base and more VII.

My opinion is the 3.5EB Gen 1 had several issues.

1. Overly aggressive OLM Programming.
2. To thin side plates in chain.
3. Excessive chain length.
4. Excessive fuel dilution.
5. HP Pumps prone to leakage.
6. Poor quality control by chain supplier.
7. High Oil Shearing
8. Oil Spec.

Most engines will be fine but if enough of those factors came together you will be one of the unlucky ones.

At least 7 of those 8 factors have been addressed on the Gen 2. Were they enough? I don't know.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

Hyundai/Kia TGDI did it to and their preferred Grade is 5W-40.

Don't worry, I ran plenty of Mobil 1 EP 5W-30 in my 2013 Hyundai Sonata SE 2.0 Turbo because I didn't know any better. I didn't really want to experiment with 5W-40 oils back then and because I didn't want to risk voiding my warranty I didn't run 0W-40. As I said, I didn't know any better. However, I was doing 3-4000 mile OCIs with OEM filter and I changed the spark plugs every 25K miles just to be on the safe side.