Ignition switch fix would've been $1 per vehicle

[Nick R]

Originally Posted By: NHGUY
I liked it when they asked Barra how many non-GM-standard parts were on present model vehicles,and instead of saying "none" she said she couldnt come up with a list.Should make buyers today feel real good that GM accepts parts that dont even meet their own mediocre standards.And this is the NEW GM,as she kept reminding.Yet nobody has been fired and the whole staff is largely the same.And seemingly she isnt in the loop,asking her a number of questions about GMs own timeline and she wasnt aware of them.Guess she's not kept up to speed..... Sounds like Robert Stempel all over again.


Do you ever post anything reasonable? Because I'm getting pretty convinced you just don't. You apparently have a mediocre (see what I did there?) understanding of how this industry, or any, works. Lemme tell you something. This was explained in the interview. Just because a part does not meet specifications, does not mean it is defective. If it performs it's job and doesn't fail, it's fine. In this particular case, I'd guess it was decided that having a slightly lower than spec rotational torque for the ignition module wouldn't be a huge deal. Which would probably be true if people didn't have 2 pounds of [censored] hanging on their car key when it's in the ignition.

This decision is made with every part, in pretty much all products. I bet you could look at Ford, Toyota, Honda, Subaru, VW, BMW, Audi, Ferrari, you name it, and find somewhere a part was below spec, but used anyway because it was not thought to impact safety or performance.

 

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
I'm sure this type of decision (quality vs cost) is made on almost every component of a car. Hind sight is 20/20.


True enough. No doubt that nearly every component in a car could be somehow be changed to be safer in some way. Taking the ignition switch issue out of context sounds makes GM look like an evil entity that has no regard for human life. Let's say they made the change on the ignition switch. What was the next item and the next? Once you've improved something, can it not be improved further still? It has to stop at some point or a Cobalt would have cost $50,000. How many would have sold? Surely every car would be safer with a NASCAR safety cage. A fire suppression system would be good too. What would that cost? Would you buy a car with one? It's always about the money. Sometimes big dollars, sometimes one dollar.

Whatever you drive, you can be assured that similar decisions were made when it was designed. Hopefully they don't underestimate a problem like GM did.

In this particular case, GM made the wrong decision and they will pay dearly for it. The fact that the part did not meet their own standards is what I have a big problem with. I suspect the courts will as well.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: Silverado12
I had an 06 Cobalt and didn't notice anything unusual about the switch. I suspect the problem is from a lot of stuff hanging from the ring.


THAT! How many of the "bad" switches were damaged by a 4-pound bundle of junk hanging from the thing?

 

[eljefino]

I have an OE HHR key here on my keyring. What noone is talking about is that I have an elongated ring-hole. This leads to key-chain weight pulling slightly counter-clockwise on the key.

For all we know the ignition switch is fine, and no problems would happen if the key had a central hole and that's it.

Will locksmiths be on the liability hook for cutting oblong-holed keys? No, because they're too small-pocketed.

I'm dismayed though not surprised that the drivers that crashed couldn't handle their car stalling and the steering getting slightly heavier. Every car has its end-of-life, if that time comes on the road is the maker liable? What if someone's timing belt snaps?

 

[Papa Bear]

Right on, eljefino.

The simple truth is completely lost in the B.S.

Keep spinning the facts until the finger stops pointing at me .... then it's the "truth".

 

[dparm]

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
I'm sure this type of decision (quality vs cost) is made on almost every component of a car. Hind sight is 20/20.



Yes, but in this case they decided to save a buck in the name of safety. This was the price for parts/tooling on new models AFTER they discovered the problem.

 

[hattaresguy]

If any of you guys have any manufacturing experience this is very common. All modern cars except maybe Pagani are built to a price point.

Mercedes used to build them than price them, but market forces showed that people don't really want that.

 

[hattaresguy]

I was watching the testimony in front of Congress yesterday and I came to the conclusion that no one their other than GM's CEO really understands how manufacturing works.

Some parts don't meet design specs in some ways, but those ways may not be critical or even important for function. So a batch will be accepted to keep the lines moving.

My buddy works in defense contracting as an engineer and does this all the time with helicopter parts that are far more critical than an ignition switch. The problem is the Government guys don't live in the real world or have any idea of how manufacturing works.

True story the factory my buddy works at took a bunch of out of spec rotor head parts and buffed them up for a neat display in the lobby. Next time the US Navy inspectors came in they saw them and almost shut the factory down because the production rotor heads were not buffed out... polishing looks pretty but has zero impact on function and doesn't meet the specs for the part at all. They almost forced them to modify the spec for polishing, at which point they would now have every part in production not meet spec...so they would be using out of "spec" parts. After that the polished parts were yanked out of the lobby...

For whatever reason GM got a batch of switch's from Delphi and determined this to be a none critical spec so they saved the money. This decision happens every single day in manufacturing plants. They did not for see a possible set of circumstances that could cause an issue, and lets be real this only happened a handful of times out of millions of cars.

All of those accident reports if you read them had mitigating circumstances, one girl was driving 70mph in a cul de sac with no seat belt and nailed an oak tree! Come on.

If cars were built with a cost is no object attitude no consumer would buy them, a Honda Accord would cost $80k. Heck that's why a new G550 costs over $130k+ twice what a domestic SUV costs. Why do you think aircraft cost millions?

 

[dparm]

hattaresguy, I totally get that. Engineers want one thing, marketing wants another, customers want another. You can't please everyone.

My issue is that there was a known problem, a way to fix it, and yet they still said "eh, whatever".

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: dparm
hattaresguy, I totally get that. Engineers want one thing, marketing wants another, customers want another. You can't please everyone.

My issue is that there was a known problem, a way to fix it, and yet they still said "eh, whatever".


Not sticking up for GM in any way, but these days I'm sure all the makes do this to some extent...

 

[dishdude]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this. I owned an '05 Cobalt for 2 years, and living in PA at the time hit some pretty major potholes and never knocked the key out of run. I had a friend with a Ranger, he hit a major pothole and tripped the fuel cutoff switch which of course killed the engine causing the same issue these ignition lock cylinders are accused of doing. He didn't lose control and wreck.

One question is - did the cars go out of control first, hit a curb which knocked the switch out of run and then hit a tree with the airbags deactivated? If so, that is unacceptable.

Engine stalling is unacceptable, but shouldn't result in an accident. Driver's should be prepared for loss of power.

Hindsight says this should have been corrected years ago, but we also don't know how big of an issue this was at the time. If it was only reported in a very small fraction of units, I could see why it wasn't a priority.

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: 147_Grain
The documents submitted to Congress today said the upgrade a dozen years ago would have been $0.57 cents.

The last thing any legislature anywhere on this planet should be doing is quoting or commenting on costs on anything.


Yep.

$400K is an awful lot of money in my book to retool a part that is apparently satisfactory in virtually all possible circumstances, save the very small handful at issue. Money doesn't grow on trees, although I'm sure some people think otherwise.

And $0.50 to $0.90 additional unit cost also comes out to quite a bit of money. At some point enough is enough, you just can't make something foolproof if you have a big enough fool on the operating end.

Why people want massive weight hanging off a key ring is beyond me, but it's very sad for the people involved, regardless.

 

[Win]

Too late to edit, but has there been any factual determination made in any of these fatalities that an on spec part would not have failed under the same circumstances that the off spec part is alleged to have failed?

 

[zzyzzx]

Originally Posted By: Silverado12
I had an 06 Cobalt and didn't notice anything unusual about the switch. I suspect the problem is from a lot of stuff hanging from the ring.


I thought your key ring needed 3lbs to make this happen.

 

[Bamaro]

I believe this is what its all about

 

[rjundi]

 

[dishdude]

What is the purpose of posting that picture? It tells nothing. For all we know the driver was passed out drunk. Do you want to discuss facts or was that an attempt to invoke an emotional reaction?

 

[wag123]

10 years ago all GM really had to do was send out a letter to all owners of the affected cars, and print a page in their owners manuals for the new cars, warning people not to attach more than X number of grams of weight to their ignition key. Problem solved. Just read through the owner's manuals of almost everything you buy now days, there are warnings about things you shouldn't do that are so "common sense" that it boggles the mind that anyone would do something so stupid with the product!
It is obviously a very slow news period for the media. After hammering us 24/7 about the missing plane for over 2 weeks, now they are onto this, and they will beat this story to death until the next thing comes along. It won't be long now and they will be beating us over the head non-stop with the upcoming elections. I HATE watching the news these days!

 

[pottymouth]

My wife's Jetta has this for an ignition switch:

Holding the button down for a couple second turns the engine off. At least two scenarios come to mind where the engine could be inadvertently shut off. Is this a defect? I'm sure some lawyer would argue it is. Do you agree?

 

[wag123]

Originally Posted By: pottymouth
Holding the button down for a couple second turns the engine off. At least two scenarios come to mind where the engine could be inadvertently shut off. Is this a defect? I'm sure some lawyer would argue it is. Do you agree?

I don't know if I am right or not, but I'd be willing to bet that the button does nothing when the car is in drive and moving.