I found this regarding the "thin" vs "thick" oil debate

[moribundman]

quote:

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There are no long life oils with low HT/HS numbers. A3 rated oils are a minimum of 3.5. Mobil 1 are the lowest HT/HS oils that are long life I would say. This post doesn't make sense. What you are calling LL oils here in the US are better at contorlling sludge and deposits. Is the point of the article suggesting the oils in Europe that are LL do not do as well of a job?

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buster,

There are plenty LL oils with low HTHS. For example, VW 503.00 requires the oil to have HTHS 2.9-3.4, which is lower than non LL spec VW 502.00, which has an HTHS 3.5 min. Nowhere did I say all LL oils are A3-rated.

I didn't call any US oils LL oils. I've previously stated that Mobil 1 0W-40 meets A3 and is approved as a LL that meets VW 503.01 (LL spec, but not with low HTHS!). That's not (yet) applicable in the US, though.

Your last observation is accurate. Indeed, it seems that a number of people in Europe does not believe LL oils are as good as non LL oils. If there is nothing to this claim, can we safely assume that the increase of sludge and premature engine wear, which seems to coincide with the introduction of LL-prepared engines and LL oil, is solely caused by the extended drains (up to 40k KM), but that is has nothing to do with the LL oils per se? I'd rather not assume...

 

[buster]

Got it, your correct. I read the article to fast, a great habit of mine. I originally thought the article was in reference to Viscosity, such as 20wt vs 40wt oils.

 

[WeyounDS9]

quote:

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Originally posted by buster:
Got it, your correct. I read the article to fast, a great habit of mine. I originally thought the article was in reference to Viscosity, such as 20wt vs 40wt oils.

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It .

The LL vs non LL debate seems secondary vs the 30 vs 40 weight debate.

Fred..

 

[jsharp]

quote:

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Originally posted by moribundman:


It seems that this trend to LL oils coincides with an increase in sludge and prematurely worn engines. LL oils are usually 0W-30, 0W-40, 5w30, and 5W-40 oils.

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I don't know if there is any increase in sludge. I think we're used to thngs lasting longer now than we used to be. Then, when they don't, we're surprised and look for a cause.

It was common in the 60's and 70's to take a valve cover off an engine with 70K miles on it and have it filled with black goop. It didn't matter though since many engines were for all intents and purposes worn out at that point. Now we think nothing of running engines 200K-300K miles...

[ September 01, 2003, 10:57 PM: Message edited by: jsharp ]

 

[AudiJunkie]

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a man who worked for Opel, BMW, Mercedes, and Alfa Romeo. He has worked also as an engine builder, and now owns his own shop.

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My fault for assuming he was an older mechanic, he just bounced around 4 companies in a short career.

quote:

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15W dino in a turbo motor.
My original post was based on the premise that LL oils may cause premature wear in (certain?) motors, and I was wondering whether that had to do with those oils generally being thinner oils. Sludge and premature engine wear are on the rise in Europe.

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...a definate possibility. With such a large pool of turbo (thin oil) cars, problems should appear on the 1.8ts if anywhere. The 1.8t has a mere 4q sump, its generally hard on oil and if changed infrequently would show sludging, yes. Still 10,000 mile intervals now but with a twist, the first one is at 5,000 miles for 2004 cars. Audi *was* committed to 15,000 mile changes briefly and withdrew the notion, so says my Service Advisor.
When you say thinner, do you mean at start-up temps or at operating temps? I'm guessing that heavier winter weighted oil is supposed to "stay in place" better when the engine is off- that's the jist of the author's argument.
If you are not willing to go with extended drains but want ACEA A3, high HT/HS how about SynPower 20w-50? Maybe lower pour/pump point with Mobil 1 15w-50, that is if you believe in the thicker oils. Until recently, I have used SynPower 5w-40, maybe a better oil than most.

 

[moribundman]

quote:

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The LL vs non LL debate seems secondary vs the 30 vs 40 weight debate.

Fred.. [Smile]

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That's true until we get LL service in the US.

........

Buster, no harm done. We all get excited and hit the occasional oil slick.

 

[moribundman]

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Unofficially, when you consider that GM's been using their OLM (since 1995?) to extend drains (up to 15k miles with Full Synthetic 5w30 in the Corvette?), then perhaps we've been in the "low HT/HS Long Life oil" arena for longer than we realize.

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There seems to be a large of oils with low(er) HTHS available in the US. Let me stress again that not all LL oils are low HTHS.

I have no doubt that more carmakers will use Long Life Service in the North American markts in the future. I wonder if an increase in premature engine wear will come along with it.


PS: I wonder why German carmakers have so far refrained from introducing Long Life Service in the US? Do they think Americans are not meticulate in taking care of their cars? Or is it because the carmakers don't want to risk costly lawsuits if those engines start failing?

[ September 02, 2003, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: moribundman ]

 

[F1Crazy]

quote:

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PS: I wonder why German carmakers have so far refrained from introducing Long Life Service in the US? Do they think Americans are not meticulate in taking care of their cars? Or is it because the carmakers don't want to risk costly lawsuits if those engines start failing? [/QB]

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Hmmm, I know that BMW and VW/Audi have Long Life service here in US. I'm not sure about M-B, they had some problems with it since they forgot to mention that proper synthetic oils need to be used to take advantage of extended drain intervals

.

 

[Eiron]

quote:

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Originally posted by moribundman:
Do they think Americans are not meticulate in taking care of their cars?

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Maybe they read the GM OLM FAQ & saw this Q&A:
"Do I have to check my oil level now that my vehicle is equipped with the GMOLS?
Yes, the system does not sense oil level. As stated in the owner's manual, it is recommended that you check your oil every time you stop for gasoline."

I've read accounts where folks thought it was OK to not check the oil for the entire duration of the interval, & ended up with the remainder of a sort of "chunky stew" in their sump. Since this question is listed on GM's FAQ, it must happen quite a bit ...

 

[moribundman]

quote:

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Hmmm, I know that BMW and VW/Audi have Long Life service here in US. I'm not sure about M-B, they had some problems with it since they forgot to mention that proper synthetic oils need to be used to take advantage of extended drain intervals [Duh!] .

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F1Crazy,

We've talked about this recently on this board and we came to the conclusion that LL Service did not exist in the US for VW and Audi. Maybe it does now? Can you please tell us exactly what you know? And please tell us what LL oils they specify for use in the US, because I see only a very limited number of oils that even meet Long Life Service specs. If what you are claim is true, then those BMW, Audi, and VW cars have engines that differ from those that were sold until recently. Could you please give a concrete example of a VW/Audi with LL Service?

[ September 02, 2003, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: moribundman ]

 

[buster]

quote:

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Granted, the only two oils available are Mobil 1 0W-40 & Saab's OE 0W-30, so there are not a lot of choices over here right now.

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FWIW, all of Amsoil's 30wt viscosity oils are A3 rated.

 

[moribundman]

Just wanted to add this:

Many LL oils must meet ACEA A1. Those are the lower HTHS ones.

 

[F1Crazy]

moribundman,
I'm not sure when the extended service intervals started for BMW, I know that all E46s were included so it was probably 1999. The car will call for service based on service indicator, roughly every 15K miles or when the car burns around 600 gallons of fuel. It is supposedly dependent on other factors and my manual states them as engine coolant temp, engine speeds, short or long trip driving, number of vehicle starts but most owners I know confirm it is always around 15K miles. The service will go something like this:
15K miles - oil service
30K miles - Inspection I
45K miles - oil service
60K miles - Inspection II
and then it repeats. The same sequence is for BMWs sold in other parts of the world. If this is not LL service then I don't know what is

.

I was also under impression that Audi called for similar services but performed every 10K miles, I may be mistaken here.

 

[moribundman]

F1Crazy,

I don't know about BMW, but I have yet to see proof that there is any VW/Audi in the US that has a flexible service interval display. Cars with LL Service can go up to 30 or 40k KM between oil change AND inspections. LL Service is not only a matter of extended drain.

Another problem I see with LL Service is the fact that you can add only certain oils between oil changes, or limited quantities (0.5l max) of a few other oils. I think it would be confusing for the consumer here.

As I've said before in another thread, I'll ask at the dealer about the availablity of LL Service, next time I go there (for parts!).

 

[F1Crazy]

quote:

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Originally posted by moribundman:
F1Crazy,

I don't know about BMW, but I have yet to see proof that there is any VW/Audi in the US that has a flexible service interval display. Cars with LL Service can go up to 30 or 40k KM between oil change AND inspections. LL Service is not only a matter of extended drain.

Another problem I see with LL Service is the fact that you can add only certain oils between oil changes, or limited quantities (0.5l max) of a few other oils. I think it would be confusing for the consumer here.

As I've said before in another thread, I'll ask at the dealer about the availablity of LL Service, next time I go there (for parts!).

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I see what you're saying.
BMW makes a rather strange oil recommendation when it comes to oil. My manual('03)says that:
"At the time of printing of this booklet BMW High Performance Synthetic 5w30 oil and Mobil 1 5w30 and 5W-40 oils are strongly recommended and approved...BMW is evaluating various synthetic oils for inclusion in our list..."
Funny that there is no Mobil 1 in 5W-40 weight. I think that they just want people to use known and proven true synthetic to avoid problems. The manual says nothing about Castrol oils

, maybe HC "synthetics" are not welcome in BMW engines

.
There is a whole list of BMW approved synthetics in Europe, I should have it somewhere.

[ September 02, 2003, 09:14 PM: Message edited by: F1Crazy ]

 

[GoHack]

The Japanese are starting to go with LL service also, or they appear to be heading that way.

My 2002 Acura RSX Type S has an oil change interval of 10,000 miles. The recommended oil weight w/it's 200 HP, 2.0L engine, is 5w30. The standard 160 HP, 2.0L engine, requires 5W-20 oil.

Not only are we starting to see longer oil changes, but w/lower weight oils.

 

[moribundman]

quote:

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Not only are we starting to see longer oil changes, but w/lower weight oils.

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That's my perception, too.

I think it may be easier to design LL oils with lower weight oils. And of course, lower weight oils do save fuel.

The question remains whether those oils will in the long run lead to shorter engine life. I suspect they will. For example, VW diesel motors used to run 300k KM and up. I hear now a lot about VW diesel engines being pretty much clapped out at 200k KM. Is this due to a combination of factors such as

- long drain intervals
- LL oils
- low weight oils
- low HTHS oils

or is it due to one particular reason? I'm sure it's combination of factors.

Another thing I wonder is whether those new engines, which are built to tight specs and which are optimized for low fuel and oil consumption, are just more prone to comparatively more wear? We have also to consider how much power engine makers are getting out of relatively small engines these days.


PS: Thank you for bringing this thread back to the topic.

 

[Eiron]

quote:

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Originally posted by moribundman:
That's true until we get LL service in the US.

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It "officially" arrived about a year ago, with the '03 model Saabs. I know, I know, "It's still a Euro brand," right? Well, sorta ... It's fully GM-owned (since 1990), & the new 9³SS harbors the latest turbocharged EcoTec engine, GM's OLM, & requires the use of oil meeting GM-LL-A-025 "Long Life" spec. The OLM has a limit of 18k miles or 2 yrs for 6L of oil in this car. Granted, the only two oils available are Mobil 1 0W-40 & Saab's OE 0W-30, so there are not a lot of choices over here right now.

Unofficially, when you consider that GM's been using their OLM (since 1995?) to extend drains (up to 15k miles with Full Synthetic 5w30 in the Corvette?), then perhaps we've been in the "low HT/HS Long Life oil" arena for longer than we realize.

 

[Eiron]

I can tell you the GM Long Life spec (GM-LL-A-025) appears to be only an attempt at earning "environmental credits". After several emails back & forth from two GM "Customer Relations Managers", GM flat-out refused to provide me with any details on the spec. My own research (in January) revealed these facts about a dozen different oils meeting the spec:

1) They're all fully synthetic
2) They're all European-made
3) All but one are 0W-30
4) Seven are rated ACEA A3, two are rated A5, two are rated A1, & one doesn't say.

It doesn't appear that GM is basing their new spec on any existing specs & then building up from there (the way MB does). This is a GM/Saab/Opel spec, but only Saab & Opel currently have it implemented.

 

[buster]

Dave, nice post. The article was informative.