Yet another thick vs thin oil question.

[Hounds]

Whoa! Colonel Poke, are you telling me that you are running (so-called) German Castrol -- i.e., 0W-30 -- in your Camry Hybrid? If so, think of this as that moment when opposing counsel stands up and says, "Your Honor, learned counsel has conceded this sole issue before the court. The prosecution moves for a directed verdict." You, sir, have been running false flag op!

 

[ekpolk]

 Originally Posted By: Gurney

Whoa! Colonel Poke, are you telling me that you are running (so-called) German Castrol -- i.e., 0W-30 -- in your Camry Hybrid? If so, think of this as that moment when opposing counsel stands up and says, "Your Honor, learned counsel has conceded this sole issue before the court. The prosecution moves for a directed verdict." You, sir, have been running false flag op!

No, not at all. Such an urge to jump to simple conclusions. The world is not so simple grasshopper! As it happens, I still have a lot of 04 vintage GC in my stock -- to the tune of several cases worth. My manual has that vague verbiage I posted, above. To me, that means I can safely use pretty much any remotely reasonable oil choice in this car. I've decided to try both the GC and the very light PP 0w-20, and see how they compare, both subjectively and by measurements such as UOA, filter examination, and so forth. Notwithstanding the mysterious language in the manual, I really don't think that this car needs thicker oil. My water temps rarely top 200F (per the ScanGauge-II) and the temp readings from the bottom of my oil pan rarely top 180F (usually lower still). We'll all have to wait patiently to see if the comparative UOA offers any clues, but so far, the only discernable difference is that the car sucks down a lot more gas on a 12 cSt oil than it did with an 8.5 cSt product. No directed verdict for you! This one goes to the jury -- but only after the evidence has been collected. We shall see. p.s. Why "so called"? It's plainly made by Castrol, and it plainly says "Made in Germany" on the back of the bottle???

 

[Hounds]

Colonel, I am almost, but not quite, at a loss for words. You are perhaps the proverbial Poster Child (so to speak) for 0W/5W-20 motor oil, and come to discover, you have a closet full of the thickest of 30 weights known to mankind, which you use in a Toyota Hybrid. Res ipsa loquitur. Clearly, there's not that much ambiguity in the Toyota owner's manual after all. We don't have to wait for your UOA to know what I and many others have been saying for years. Namely, we may not need the margin of protection 5W-30 affords us -- as you say, the jury's still out on that issue -- but it certainly is reassuring to know we have it, and we'd be d**m foolish not to put it there. That's why you buy the stuff. Not only am I and my many clients deserving of a directed verdict, you're lucky we're not moving for costs and fees. A Toyota Hybrid with a sump full of GC 0W-30. Whodathunkit!

 

[ARCOgraphite]

The tappet clearance in my wifes 05 rav4 2AZFE with flat tappets was worn out of spec on 5 valves in 50k miles. Thats with genuine toyota motor oil 5W-30. So add pack problems not vis. The are a lot of flat tappet problems out there, Honda, Vw, Toyota. I got a dose of M1 Racing 4t in my yaris to keep it going. Nice stuff.

 

[ekpolk]

 Originally Posted By: Gurney

Colonel, I am almost, but not quite, at a loss for words. You are perhaps the proverbial Poster Child (so to speak) for 0W/5W-20 motor oil, and come to discover, you have a closet full of the thickest of 30 weights known to mankind, which you use in a Toyota Hybrid. Res ipsa loquitur. Clearly, there's not that much ambiguity in the Toyota owner's manual after all. We don't have to wait for your UOA to know what I and many others have been saying for years. Namely, we may not need the margin of protection 5W-30 affords us -- as you say, the jury's still out on that issue -- but it certainly is reassuring to know we have it, and we'd be d**m foolish not to put it there. That's why you buy the stuff. Not only am I and my many clients deserving of a directed verdict, you're lucky we're not moving for costs and fees. A Toyota Hybrid with a sump full of GC 0W-30. Whodathunkit!

One more time -- it's an ongoing experiment, not a commitment to one grade over another. And one that I'm conducting because I happen to have a residual stash of GC from the days when I was driving a G35. So no, this is not an "admission" of any sort. Far from it. I'm planning to do future runs with the PP 0w-20 that I ordered on-line (just try to find that on a store shelf). Keeping in mind the limits of UOA, I'll get both tested and see how they compare after similar OCIs in my 2AZ-FXE. No ambiguity in the manual? Good grief, now that's where you should have seen a nice res ipsa. They mention three objectively measurable or definable parameters, oil vis, driving speed, and operating load; and don't bother to offer ANY definition, limitation, or parameters for any of them!!! That would be about as ambiguous as it gets. Now, at the risk of stoking up the rest of the syrup-worshiping crowd, I'll mention that we actually have TWO hybrids with GC in them. Yep, it's in the Prius too. But that's an entirely different story. The 1NZ-FXE did not get back-speced to 20 wt oils. I suspect, but have no solid proof, that this is a result of the fuel dilution issue which surfaces so often with this engine. But hey, if an engine never ever shows that it has a need for the use of a 30 or 40 wt oil, then why not use the 20? Many dozens of times, I've asked somebody to explain where all the dead Fords and Hondas are hiding, more than eight years into the 20 wt "experiment". Thus far, there has been no cataclysmic pandemic of engine failures. I seriously doubt my Camry hybrid needs anything heavier than a 20, and in a couple months, we'll get a glimpse at some data (the two UOA). Tell you what -- I'll stipulate to a judgment on the pleadings if you can show me a junkyard full of thin-oil-killed cars.

 

[ekpolk]

 Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite

The tappet clearance in my wifes 05 rav4 2AZFE with flat tappets was worn out of spec on 5 valves in 50k miles. Thats with genuine toyota motor oil 5W-30. So add pack problems not vis. The are a lot of flat tappet problems out there, Honda, Vw, Toyota. I got a dose of M1 Racing 4t in my yaris to keep it going. Nice stuff.

AG: I'm confused (now Gurney, don't start on me...) about this post. On one hand, you acknowledge that add pack effectiveness may be more important than vis (within the bounds of common sense). I have long suspected that this is the case. On the other hand, you're using M1R4T in a Yaris. On one hand, given its approvals (SJ) and intended use (motorcycles), I'm sure it has a very robust add pack. On the other hand, it is also up at almost 14 cSt, IIRC. So it seems you're attacking on both fronts -- add pack and viscosity. Were you looking for both or just one (choosing this particular oil would seem to indicate both)?

 

[ARCOgraphite]

True, the Yaris doesnt like too much running viscosity, so I just spiked a "bad" fill of 10w-30 synpower with 1/4qt of 5w-20 M1 and 1/4 qt of M1R4T (custom dumbell blend) This is after draining the 1/2 qt first, of course I've found 4T to be my magic elixer/fixer on more than a few occasions. We've lost the last 5 engines in our family due to piston slap and oil usage very early (<50k mi). Thats why I've been spending this past decade trying to get a better understanding of lubricants. I'm sure the ethanol blend in the fuel has something to do with this too.

 

[G-MAN]

 Originally Posted By: sunfire

 Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm

........smooth as glass,but sluggish on a cool engine.

Engines run much better when oil is at Operating Temperature... wear is reduced too. So you want to get the oil reach its OT ASAP. 10W40 will reach OT faster than a thicker 20W50. Takes more time and heat to thin a 20W50 to OT.

Now that is classic. Totally bogus, but classic.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Sunfire: ".. Thin an oil to operating temperature..."? That is a nonsensical statement. Please rephrase so we can get your drift.

 

[Gary Allan]

He basically said that it takes more time and energy to reduce a 20w-50 to operating viscosity (which would mean a normalized temp). You'll expend more energy pumping heavier oils ..but the time/miles to normal operating temp/visc is not altered too much in my experience.