I found this regarding the "thin" vs "thick" oil debate

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The following is a translated version of a quote by a man who worked for Opel, BMW, Mercedes, and Alfa Romeo. He has worked also as an engine builder, and now owns his own shop. He specializes in rebuiling BMW engines. I used Babelfish, and touched the translation up a bit. Excuse the funky English, neither Babelfish, nor I, is a professional translator. [Razz] The following pertains to our constant "thin" vs "thick" oil debate. In this case it's about thin Long Life oil (0/5W-X) versus thicker oil like 15W-40.
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"I cannot use this oil for my customers (at least not if I do not want to destroy their engines). 80% of all customers have more current engines than model year '94. In these engines the oil pump is no longer located in the sump, but in the "Steuerdeckel" or in the raised position. Since an oil pump has no gaskets, it is never completely tight, and it doesn't have to be tight. When using thicker oil, the oil remains in the pump. The "Sichelräder" [sickle gears] are nicely wet with oil and, due to the thickness of the oil, they are immediately to sucks the oil in. thin oil will flow out of the pump over night, the oil pump gears are nearly oil-free after 24 hours. The suction power of the pump reduces is reduced, In addition, the crankshaft and oil pressure channels emptied themselves and ran dry over night. This does not happen with thicker oil. The further advantages of the heavy oils are also high temperature stability, higher "Druckaufnahme" [pressure reception], even with much cold weather startups, the oil will not be dangerously diluted by fuel, the motor will run quieter (mechanical noises). Even after not running the motor for prolonged times, all parts are still well oiled (with the light oils the cylinder walls are already drying), oil consumption is low, and wear on reciprocating and rotary parts is low, too. Disadvantages of those thicker oils are that they do not release additonal horsepower (by more bearing air), that the cold start cranking speed is slower, that fuel consumption is higher (but savings are equalized by the increased oil consumption of the light oils). Whatever points you make, I take the thick oil, you may take the thin ones. Heavy oils have proven in inummerable cars that they are up to delivering long engine life and high mileage. That the new oils [thin/Long Life oils] are suited to nothing, is reflected in the 29 engines with lubrication problems or complete loss of the motor starting from model year '96 and under 100k km. For me that is not coincidence. ALL have cold tracks in the cylinders (indications of dry sockets with the cold starts), all had busted oil pumps (with scoring throughout), all had Fresspuren [scored marks?] into the connecting rode bearings. 25 of those engines failed due to the scored connecting rod bearings. All of those motors ahd sludge (shows overload of the oil), and I won't use that kind of oil. Why has BMW approved 15W-40 for the V8, m43, m51, m21, m52, m70 , and all M-motors, except the new M3-5? Of course only up to the model year since when only Long Life oil (the name alone makes me want to drop in the dirt!) have been used. And why does a manufacturer such as Motull, which is always at the forefront of racing, produce 4 different 15W-X oils but only one of the viscosities? They must be crazy! Or have they understood?
[ August 31, 2003, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: moribundman ]
 
quote:
Originally posted by moribundman: The following is a translated version of a quote by a man who worked for Opel, BMW, Mercedes, and Alfa Romeo. He has worked also as an engine builder, and now owns his own shop. He specializes in rebuiling BMW engines. I used Babelfish, and touched the translation up a bit. Excuse the funky English, neither Babelfish, nor I, is a professional translator. [Razz] The following pertains to our constant "thin" vs "thick" oil debate. In this case it's about thin Long Life oil (0/5W-X) versus thicker oil like 15W-40.
quote:
"I cannot use this oil for my customers (at least not if I do not want to destroy their engines). 80

Use Castrol HD-30 dinosaur oil, friends. Back when I lived in new York, monograde 30 served me well even in the coldest winters, and even in hunting/fishing trips in Western N.Y. State in January. Brrrrrr!!!!!!! (All that advertising blurb about 0w20, 0w-30 making engines start easier in sub-zero is highly exaggerated. I never had problems starting with HD-30 in my engine; not even in January when near the canadian border.)
 
Interesting article. I'd like to point out something though (not a flame at all), but the M-Division's motors are labeled Sxx not Mxx. [Smile] A note about winter. 0W30 makes a world of difference during the winter time. The BMW e46 had a semi-recall last winter: the 5W30 grade was too viscous and jammed up the VANOS during the wintertime which triggered Check Engine Lights for most everyone. The remedy was switching over to 0W30. [ August 31, 2003, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: Asmodeus ]
 
I don't agree with him. Oils today are better then ever and contain better additives. You can make any oil of any viscosity perform well. I still think a good oil is one that has a good base oil with a strong additive package. Plus, a 5w-30 synthetic will protect better then most dinos of higher weights.
 
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I don't agree with him. Oils today are better then ever and contain better additives. You can make any oil of any viscosity perform well. I still think a good oil is one that has a good base oil with a strong additive package. Plus, a 5w-30 synthetic will protect better then most dinos of higher weights.
He was talking about Long Life oils versus thicker quality oils (since he mentions Motul, I presume he was talking mostly about synthtic oil), which as far as I know, are not that well represented in the US market. As for synthetic 5W-30 protecting better than most dinos of heigher weights, sure, but who says that's sufficient? For expample, my manual specifically advises me not to use any 5W-30 (dino or synthetic) for long distance high speed driving or at high ambient temperatures. What I keep hearing about prematurely worn engines, which run on Long Life oils, worries me, because those oils will become standard in the US, too.
 
This is one of the funnier low-viscosity oil chicken-little's I've read. The author argues that light-weight oils will, "destroy their engines" because oil drains out of the oil pump faster. Really?! I thought that's what anti-drain back valves were for. I mean, If I draw water up into a straw and put my finger on top of the straw water won't drain out. Duh!
 
In college in the 60s one of my roomates had a corvette and ran 30wt year round. Yes it started at -20, but you could hear the rods knocking for a block. Same thing with my father in laws 78 caddy, I can still hear those rods pounding on a cold northern illinois morning. At his house it was always garaged but when he came to visit us it got a chance to cool off.
 
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I'm not sure what you mean by "long life" oils? Thick vs thin?
Long Life oils (for extended drain) are those oils that have been becoming increasingly standard in Europe since the mid '90s. They are mostly (not all!) lower HTHS oils that have to last, depending on the carmaker, up to 30, 40, or now maybe even 50k KM in some cars. Long Life oils are reflected in the ACEA oil specs (A3, B3, B4 oils) and the carmaker's on oil specs (For example VW 503.00, VW 503.01, VW 506.00, VW 506.01). It seems that this trend to LL oils coincides with an increase in sludge and prematurely worn engines. LL oils are usually 0W-30, 0W-40, 5W-30, and 5W-40 oils. [ August 31, 2003, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: moribundman ]
 
Thanks for the info. This is what I have been hearing from my European-born mechanic. I don't believe it though. Is a pourpoint of -93 degrees excessive, yes. Do some ICE desingers specify 20w, yes. I am convinced that ~30 weight oil will protect most cars on the hot end and no more than a 5w dino will allow internal flow at zero degrees. Moribundman, these guys would still run a single-weight oil if they could get away with it. It is old-thinking to believe these claims. The same (potential) "scoring" seen from lack of oil pressure on start-up due to drain-back is countered by the instant pumpability! Mobil 1 10w-30 flows down to -50 ish, wouldn't it have the same effect as these 0w oils as far as drainback goes? 15w-x oils do not meet ACEA A3 specs, why would they protect better in my ACEA A3 engine? You gotta figure *some people* are going to take the (older) skeptical point-of-view, especially when they were out of the business when the newer oils were concieved.
 
AudiJunkie, We all can theorize why and if people have an agenda, or if they are simply stating their opinions, which are hopefully founded on their own experiences. The guy who I quoted above seems to be a younger person and not an old school mechanic, who might be set in his ways. I will not speculate on whether what he says is the absolute truth, but I will certainly give his opinion consideration and entertain his thoughts on the issue. Your statement that there are no 15W-X oils that meet ACEA A3 is incorrect. For example, Mobil 1 15W-50 meets ACEA A3, B3, B4...
 
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They are mostly (not all!) lower HTHS oils that have to last
You mean Higher HT/HS. To me this whole article sounds ridiculous. Long life oil, or what I call top tier synthetics capable of extended drains, are superior to regular oils. They keep the engines clean and if you don't want to risk sludge by extending the drain, change it early.
 
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quote:They are mostly (not all!) lower HTHS oils that have to last You mean Higher HT/HS. To me this whole article sounds ridiculous. Long life oil, or what I call top tier synthetics capable of extended drains, are superior to regular oils. They keep the engines clean and if you don't want to risk sludge by extending the drain, change it early.
No, I meant what I said. Most European cars that are on Long Life service use lower HTHS oil.
 
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I will certainly give his opinion consideration and entertain his thoughts on the issue. Your statement that there are no 15W-X oils that meet ACEA A3 is incorrect. For example, Mobil 1 15W-50 meets ACEA A3, B3, B4
Oh, definately include ALL info you find, I am just being skeptical by nature. Yeppers, the 15w-50 M1 and the 20w-50 SynPower meets ACEA 3, I am a little hung-up on the new Audi (owner's manual) specs for turbos needing 0w oils. What I meant was that 15w dino will not meet requirements of turbo Audis at all, and mechanics who promote it get dissqualified, imo, even for suggesting it.
 
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Oh, definately include ALL info you find, I am just being skeptical by nature. Yeppers, the 15w-50 M1 and the 20w-50 SynPower meets ACEA 3, I am a little hung-up on the new Audi (owner's manual) specs for turbos needing 0w oils. What I meant was that 15w dino will not meet requirements of turbo Audis at all, and mechanics who promote it get dissqualified, imo, even for suggesting it.
If you look again, I wasn't talking about Audi, but BMW. I also didn't say anything about anyone suggesting 15W dino in a turbo motor. My original post was based on the premise that LL oils may cause premature wear in (certain?) motors, and I was wondering whether that had to do with those oils generally being thinner oils. Sludge and premature engine wear are on the rise in Europe.
 
Here Fred: "Ich kann dieses Öl nicht bei meinen Kunden verwenden (zumindest nicht wenn ich nicht Ihre Motoren vernichten will). 80% aller Kunden haben aktuellere Motoren als BJ 94, bei 100% dieser Motoren liegt die Ölpumpe nicht mehr im Ölsumpf. Sondern im Steuerdeckel oder in der angehobenen Position. Da an der Ölpumpe auf Dtg. verzichtet wird, ist die natürlich nicht ganz dicht, braucht sie auch nicht sein (eigentlich). Bei den Ölen auf denen Du so gern rumhackst, beibt das Öl in der Pumpe. Die Sichelräder sind schön Ölfeucht und durch die Dicke des Öls sofort zum saugen bereit. Deine Hightecöle die fließen über Nacht aus der Pumpe raus, die Räder sind nach 24h fast Ölfrei. Die Saugleistung der Pumpe setzt sich herunter, dazu kommt nun noch, das die Kurbelwelle über Nacht sich entleerte und auch die Öldruckkanäle leerliefen. Was bei dem anderen Ölen nicht der Fall ist. Die weiteren Vorteile der dickeren Öle sind auch noch, die Temperaturstabilität, höhere Druckaufnahme, selbst bei viel Kaltstarts wird das Öl nicht so verdünnt (durch Kraftstoff) das es gefährlich wird, ruhigerer Lauf (mechanische Geräusche), selbst nach langer Standzeitsind alle zu schmierenden Teile noch gut geölt (bei den dünnen Ölen sind die Zylinderwandungen schon trocken), geringer Ölverbrauch und sehr geringer Verschleiß der oszillierendenden und rotierenden Teile. Nachteile der Öle sie geben nur die wahre Leistung des Motors frei und schalten keine Zusatz PS (durch mehr Lagerluft), Anlassdrehzahl geringer, höherer Kraftstoffverbrauch (Ersparnis wird aber vom erhöhten Ölverbrauch der dünnen Öle egalisiert). Weist Du Peter Ihr könnt machen was Ihr wollt, ich nehme die Dicken, Du und Andere die Dünnen. Das die Dicken Öle für hohe KM Stände reif sind, das haben sie bewiesen in unzähligen Autos. Das die neuen Öle nichts taugen, ist in meinen Augen auch schon klar (29 Motoren im letzten Jahr mit Schmierproblemen und Komplettausfall der BJ ab 96 und unter 100tkm.) Für mich ist das kein Zufall. ALLE haben Kaltlaufspuren in den Zylindern (Zeichen für trockene Buchsen beim Kaltstart),ALLE haben fertige Ölpumpen (so mit Riefen übersät das Alle ausgetauscht werden mussten, was Punkt 1 bestätigt), Alle hatten Fresspuren in den PL bei 25 davon war es der Grund der Dienstverweigerung, Schwarzschlamm hatten sie auch Alle (Überbelastung des Öles) und das soll ich bei meinen Kunden vergiessen? Nein! Peter das überlasse ich anderen und Du kannst noch so sehr gegen die dicken Öle wettern. Warum hat BMW ob das für einen V8,M43,M51,M21,M52,M70 alle M-Modelle ausser neuem M3-5 ist 15W40 freigegeben? Natürlich bloß bis zu dem BJ ab denen dann Long Life (ich könnte mich schon beim Namen in den Dreck hauen)nur noch verfüllt wird. Und warum stellen Hersteller wie Motul die in dem Rennsport die Nase immer richtig mit vorn haben 4 verschiedene 15W Öle her und jeweils nur 1 der anderen verschiedenen Viskositäten? Die müssen doch spinnen! Oder die habens verstanden? Also Peter das waren meine letzten Worte zu diesen leidigen Thema. Du kannst machen was Du willst, ich mache das eben Anders! Für mich sind die Kundenfahrzeuge solange sie in meiner Werkstatt sind und ich an Ihnen arbeite meine Autos. Und in meine Autos vergiesse ich das, was ich für richtig erachte. Ausser der in diesen Falle Zweitbesitzer (Kunde) wünscht etwas anderes. Aber fast 100% vertrauen bei der Pflege Ihres Autos meinen Rat. Und Ausfälle bei meinen Kunden hab ich eben noch keinen Einzigen."
 
There are no long life oils with low HT/HS numbers. A3 rated oils are a minimum of 3.5. M1 are the lowest HT/HS oils that are long life I would say. This post doesn't make sense. What you are calling LL oils here in the US are better at contorlling sludge and deposits. Is the point of the article suggesting the oils in Europe that are LL do not do as well of a job?
 
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Originally posted by buster: There are no long life oils with low HT/HS numbers. A3 rated oils are a minimum of 3.5. M1 are the lowest HT/HS oils that are long life I would say. This post doesn't make sense. What you are calling LL oils here in the US are better at contorlling sludge and deposits. Is the point of the article suggesting the oils in Europe that are LL do not do as well of a job?
Actually, A5 is an extended drain ACEA spec. The only difference between an A3 and A5 oil is the HT/HS requirement.
 
This is some really good presenting on this subject, The translation was pretty accurate as well (thank you Moribundman). I think I will use this on NICO Fred... [Smile]
 
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