Unless you live in Australia. Then by your definition, it'd be Winter use only.Right, thanks!
Summer use only.
HPL SAE 40 PCMO
- Thread starter Hohn
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If your staring temperature allows for 20W, try it at home. Great, cheap No VII option.
I’ve got two unopened quarts of HPL in my freezer: one is the 15w-40, the other is the monograde sibling. They’ve cold soaked overnight. This should allow some crude cold flow comparison.
I’m not sure what to do beyond shaking each because I don’t want to open them.
I’m not sure what to do beyond shaking each because I don’t want to open them.
An oil with a 15W winter rating is completely acceptable at 20° F. End of story. You really need to learn about the physics behind this and stop posting nonsense. It would also be pumpable at 5° F.
It’s not deceiving anyone.
Yes it gives the normal temp ranges for each grade oil listed that are found in many owners' manuals. Also it's a pull start. There's no starter, so that's taken into account. But I am not worried about it, because my days of having to mow when it's in the 30s-40s are over now. And regardless I keep it in a garage, so even if I did need to mow during a cold snap, the first start would be warm enough.
Every oil will be pumpable until its border line, however the stress on the oil pump and filter will increase with colder temp.
On paper the border line of 15W-40 is -4*F. That's why it was more interesting to me to see video (or info) of start up at 5*F (what the temp was about a month ago around here) than 20*F which was a few days later.
If I'm running thick oil in the winter and post results only at about 20*F but the temp. in my region goes much lower than that and I convince people that the oil is fine in the winter - that is deceiving.
He's already humored you above and beyond what anyone could expect. He made a video of a cold start.
You do realize he doesn't live in Chicago right? Your weather has nothing to do with his.
Put the tin foil hat away. No one is trying to deceive you. He's given so much to the community with his posts and experimentation with uncommon oil choices.
I buy mine in five gallon pails for summer use, but I think it's more of an HDEO 40, than a PCMO; it is getting harder to find.
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Why are you expecting everyone to clap or agree when there are so many variables to the "scientific" tests that he does?
For example, what information would give us oil bottles left in the freezer without opening them to see me the actual oil flow? Also, has the cold flow something to do with oil's pumpability and going through oil paper filter, for example?
It's very nice that Hohn posts feedback about uncommon oil choices. Nobody told him to don't post. However, I think that skepticism and doubt about those uncommon choices is absolutely normal.
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So then is the point of this to prove that SAE 40 is viable, or just to show that HPL is good?
Traction is a pretty unintuitive lubrication phenomenon. I like to think of it as how much “grip” is transmitted through two surfaces separated by the oil film when that film is highly constrained and highly loaded. It’s only of concern in full film lubrication when both surfaces are fully separated by an EHD oil film (right half beyond the “dip” in the Stribeck curve).
Generally, higher viscosity oils are higher traction oils, which makes sense because both are effectively a resistance to shear. But oils effectively change viscosity with the pressure acting on them. The rate at which this occurs is the pressure-viscosity coefficient.
For a given viscosity, a lower p-v coefficient will have lower traction (in general). This is how a PAO or GTL base oil can have lower pumping losses than a petroleum oil even if they have identical viscosity specs by KV100.
You want low traction because it means less pumping loss, a cooler running engine (less shear heating) and such.
But generally, thicker oils are higher traction oils and vice versa. So if you can have an oil that is lower traction *relative to HTHS or KV100* then you have the best of both worlds. Something that can protect like a thicker oils but with less of the penalty a thick oil would bring.
VII raise oil traction relative to KV100 because they have wildly different p-v coefficients than base oil. Using a no VII oil with a GTL base in a thicker grade gives you the minimum traction penalty relative to the HTHS and KV100. It sort of lets you have your thick oil cake and thin oil eat it too.
Anecdotally, my experience with the HPL PCMO 40 grades has shown no net decrease in MPG in similar duty cycles. The lower traction of the HPL oils is allowing me to have the thicker oil films (and lower wear) of the 40 grades while keeping the mpg of a 30 grade.
So I pulled the quarts out of the freezer and observed the clear level indicator window on each bottle with a bright light as I tilted them over. I’m not sure how to capture this on video— it’s not easy to see. I’ll see if I can grab a phone video.
There’s almost no discernible difference between them at the temp of my freezer (0-5F?) They are both thick, but they flow perfectly acceptably well for a rare cold winter start, as my freezer temps are below what my local ambient can realistically achieve with any regularity.
This seems to confirm (yet again) all the mental bias we bring in when thinking about this monograde SAE 40. It’s classic fallacy, mistaking the absence of proof (no cold rating) as proof of absence (inappropriate for cold).
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very cool! thanks for the info
I find it fascinating that you're experimenting with grades most of us would not think to use in an area that experiences cold winters.
You've clearly thought this through and you are putting theory into practice and reporting what you find.
If I interpret your location correctly, you're in Columbus IN, where the winter weather would be very similar to what we see here, so plenty cold but with only the occasional night or two below zero each winter.
You've clearly thought this through and you are putting theory into practice and reporting what you find.
If I interpret your location correctly, you're in Columbus IN, where the winter weather would be very similar to what we see here, so plenty cold but with only the occasional night or two below zero each winter.
Nice, didn't even realize HPL made an SAE40.
Just as a data point, my shared sump wet clutch motorcycle has been living on Valvoline VR1 SAE40 for the past ~50K miles. In a shared sump engine, the transmission gears shear the oil VII's - some bikes worse than others and some oils worse than others - resulting in shifting becoming jankier.
When you're shifting up and down hundreds of times a ride, poor shifting feel can totally ruin the experience.
I initially tried the VR1 just as an experiment (theory being no VII = no shear = consistent shifting throughout OCI) and I wasn't expecting too much considering Valvoline does not recommend it for wet clutch applications, but it ended up subjectively being the best oil I've ever used.
And for $6/qt when on sale at Amazon, by far the best bang for the buck as well compared to pricier 'motorcycle' oils.
I do ride occasionally in winter, but my bike is kept indoors and the lowest temp I've started in was about 45F. Cranks a little slower (bear in mind the small starter), but never failed to start easily the first try. Being a conventional oil, I probably wouldn't run this if I had to start in subfreezing temps.
An old UOA here:
I may give the HPL SAE40 a try, especially if it has good cleaning properties.
Just as a data point, my shared sump wet clutch motorcycle has been living on Valvoline VR1 SAE40 for the past ~50K miles. In a shared sump engine, the transmission gears shear the oil VII's - some bikes worse than others and some oils worse than others - resulting in shifting becoming jankier.
When you're shifting up and down hundreds of times a ride, poor shifting feel can totally ruin the experience.
I initially tried the VR1 just as an experiment (theory being no VII = no shear = consistent shifting throughout OCI) and I wasn't expecting too much considering Valvoline does not recommend it for wet clutch applications, but it ended up subjectively being the best oil I've ever used.
And for $6/qt when on sale at Amazon, by far the best bang for the buck as well compared to pricier 'motorcycle' oils.
I do ride occasionally in winter, but my bike is kept indoors and the lowest temp I've started in was about 45F. Cranks a little slower (bear in mind the small starter), but never failed to start easily the first try. Being a conventional oil, I probably wouldn't run this if I had to start in subfreezing temps.
An old UOA here:
Finally got around to doing a used oil analysis for this oil.
According to the VR1 spec sheet, TBN starts at 8.5, flash is 248C, and Zinc/Phosphorous should be 1400/1300ppm.
Was surprised to see actual Zn/P amounts being higher, but not surprised at the viscosity. Shifts as good at 4000 miles as it did at 0 miles.
According to the VR1 spec sheet, TBN starts at 8.5, flash is 248C, and Zinc/Phosphorous should be 1400/1300ppm.
Was surprised to see actual Zn/P amounts being higher, but not surprised at the viscosity. Shifts as good at 4000 miles as it did at 0 miles.
I may give the HPL SAE40 a try, especially if it has good cleaning properties.
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Everything they make works brilliantly, i just wish it was in a more freedom-loving state with less restrictions. I'm kind of excited to see what type of results that you can get from this 40. I even wonder what a virgin oil analysis would tell us and what would be harder to analyze if there's some special material in that bottle of oil.
@High Performance Lubricants wondering if this 40 weight oil that you guys make would be a better return for people who are wanting to run something like a oil stabilizer but actually want something that doesn't completely deplete the rest of the oil characteristics? My thinking is this would be a great product if you ran a generator that was outside in 100° weather constantly. I'm sure a couple of teaspoons of this into the new eight and 16-wt oils could turn it back into manly oil
Our 40 grades are still built in synthetic base stocks, which have good low temperature properties. We do not run CCS and MRV on these but it may reach a 20 or 25W without VI improver in the formula. If I were in 100° temp consistently and needed a generator oil would I use this absolutely. We can make it in a PCMO or heavy duty motor oil formula.
