HPL SAE 40 PCMO

[Hohn]

So I pulled the quarts out of the freezer and observed the clear level indicator window on each bottle with a bright light as I tilted them over. I’m not sure how to capture this on video— it’s not easy to see. I’ll see if I can grab a phone video.

There’s almost no discernible difference between them at the temp of my freezer (0-5F?) They are both thick, but they flow perfectly acceptably well for a rare cold winter start, as my freezer temps are below what my local ambient can realistically achieve with any regularity.

This seems to confirm (yet again) all the mental bias we bring in when thinking about this monograde SAE 40. It’s classic fallacy, mistaking the absence of proof (no cold rating) as proof of absence (inappropriate for cold).

I bit the bullet and decided to open the bottles and do a cold pour test after an overnight soak in my garage chest freezer.

As expected, the monograde is a bit thicker but still pours quite freely at about 0F temps. My freezer is more like -5F— -10f, but I’m sure the warmed slightly in the 30 seconds or so I had them sitting atop the freezer in ~45F.

This is not science, just a useful anecdotal comparison of the monograde against the 15w-40 that has been validated to temps of 15F in my personal usage.


For my purposes, this suffices to allay any lingering doubts about whether my local climate will allow the usage of this SAE 40 in my vehicles year round here in south central Indiana.

 

[Hohn]

@High Performance Lubricants wondering if this 40 weight oil that you guys make would be a better return for people who are wanting to run something like a oil stabilizer but actually want something that doesn't completely deplete the rest of the oil characteristics? My thinking is this would be a great product if you ran a generator that was outside in 100° weather constantly. I'm sure a couple of teaspoons of this into the new eight and 16-wt oils could turn it back into manly oil

I’m sure it would be superb hot weather generator oil. I doubt it can impact an SAE 16 grade much at all as an additive.

 

[Japanese]

So then is the point of this to prove that SAE 40 is viable, or just to show that HPL is good?

Only if it's full synthetic (possibly GTL/PAO), yes.

Almost all of the SAE 30 and 40 grades out there are conventional non-detergent oils because are made for farm equipment, lawnmowers, generators, etc. You don't want those in your car engine.
Actually, I've never seen any full synthetic SAE 30 or 40 grade anywhere, except the HPL one.

 

[jeff78]

For my purposes, this suffices to allay any lingering doubts about whether my local climate will allow the usage of this SAE 40 in my vehicles year round here in south central Indiana.

Yeah, visibly negligible difference. And functionally zero difference when being pumped as opposed to poured.

Plugging the viscosity numbers from the HPL spec sheet into a viscosity calculator, the SAE40 at 0F should be around 11000cSt.

I think I'll try the freezer test with some VR1 SAE40. I'm not expecting it to flow as well as the HPL though.

 

[facility1]

40# is 40# no matter the brand, I would not use in a vehicle unless it is very hot outside, even then the use is very limited unless you have SEVER mechanical issues, I would use a lower viscosity oil, or a multi vis.,there are many good oils currently on the market to choose from that will work good. even a low pour point does not tell you everything on how the lubricant will perform in a engine.

 

[Japanese]

Thanks for the demo! It doesn't look that bad for SAE40 but there is visible difference vs 0W-20 (which I tested at the same temp.). The visible difference is that the 0W-20 still flows like a water and doesn't leave those long runoffs in the end.

Also, I would like to send you this device for future scientific tests (feel free to message me your address or P.O. box):
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2058182169...bOUYhvV/2McgdJg7E8nwRF3A==|tkp:Bk9SR9bj-9n5Zg

I bit the bullet and decided to open the bottles and do a cold pour test after an overnight soak in my garage chest freezer.

Why would you hesitate to open the oil when you're going to use it in 6 moths or earlier anyway?

 

[Hohn]

40# is 40# no matter the brand, I would not use in a vehicle unless it is very hot outside, even then the use is very limited unless you have SEVER mechanical issues, I would use a lower viscosity oil, or a multi vis.,there are many good oils currently on the market to choose from that will work good. even a low pour point does not tell you everything on how the lubricant will perform in a engine.

This is a good example of the closed- mindedness I’m hoping I can somewhat dispel.

I’ve posted UOA of the superb results I got with 15w-40 PCMO in a short trip application with lots of cold weather.

I’ve argued—and now demonstrated—that the cold flow (to a point;15F or warmer) of the SAE 40 is very close to the 15w-40 that is unquestionably working brilliantly for me in my area (backed by UOA).

At this point, there’s really nothing backing the reflexive opposition to this particular monograde but an emotional reflex overriding a willingness to consider challenging new information.

 

[Hohn]

Yeah, visibly negligible difference. And functionally zero difference when being pumped as opposed to poured.

Plugging the viscosity numbers from the HPL spec sheet into a viscosity calculator, the SAE40 at 0F should be around 11000cSt.

I think I'll try the freezer test with some VR1 SAE40. I'm not expecting it to flow as well as the HPL though.

Don’t be surprised if it’s barely pourable. Straight grade VR1 uses inexpensive base oils.

 

[cheesepuffs2]

Only if it's full synthetic (possibly GTL/PAO), yes.

Almost all of the SAE 30 and 40 grades out there are conventional non-detergent oils because are made for farm equipment, lawnmowers, generators, etc. You don't want those in your car engine.
Actually, I've never seen any full synthetic SAE 30 or 40 grade anywhere, except the HPL one.

So then, this exercise proves nothing about SAE 40, generically speaking, being a suitable grade for his driving and conditions. Only that if you buy this expensive boutique 40 grade, then you’ll be fine.

What’s the purpose of choosing a spendy boutique 40 grade where a non-boutique yet high quality multi-grade would yield the same results in cold weather? For instance, you can get Castrol Edge Euro 5W-40 at Walmart for $27.48 per jug right now. Seems a fools errand to “prove” that this particular SAE 40 is suitable.

 

[Japanese]

I initially tried the VR1 just as an experiment (theory being no VII = no shear = consistent shifting throughout OCI) and I wasn't expecting too much considering Valvoline does not recommend it for wet clutch applications, but it ended up subjectively being the best oil I've ever used.

SAE 40 grade has been used in motorsports in both cars and motorcycles for quite a while.

You should definitely try the HPL full synthetic version as well. There should be significant difference vs the conventional VR1, especially at lower temps.

 

[altaylar]

SAE 40 grade has been used in motorsports in both cars and motorcycles for quite while.

You definitely should try the HPL full synthetic version as well. There should be significant difference vs the conventional VR1, especially at lower temps.

Just a little reminder, one could even have some sort of an idea of PAO content of an oil looking at the pour point. What I mean to say is, base stock selection can change the cold behavior even for the same hot behiviour. So completely agree with you. I really like VR1 line of products, but the SAE 40 is a conventional base stock version of VR1. It should have significantly inferior to HPL`s product when it comes to cold behaviour.

 

[tired]

Why are you expecting everyone to clap or agree when there are so many variables to the "scientific" tests that he does?

Because he’s extremely open about all of the variables. He’s even posted the city he lives in. That’s far more than most anyone would do. I don’t understand why you are so suspicious and constantly try to find the negative in everything he does. He’s not trying to trick anyone into using this that shouldn’t. Just because what he’s doing isn’t 100% applicable to your micro climate doesn’t invalidate everything he’s doing. Yes it wouldn’t be a great oil for people who need to start in below 0 or single digits consistently. So what? As he has said multiple times, there is still a very large portion of the country for whom 15W-40 would make an excellent option. And I applaud him for not being afraid to go back to first principles and start there when selecting a proper engine oil, and not just picking any 5W-30 like 99% of people would do.

Just take it for what it is: incredible and FREE knowledge. The guy just espouses gold on here. Just soak it up and learn something. If you decide it’s not for you, that’s totally fine. Use whatever oil you’d like.

 

[tired]

What’s the purpose of choosing a spendy boutique 40 grade where a non-boutique yet high quality multi-grade would yield the same results in cold weather?

Well not only for science, but also if you saw his UOA for the 15W-40, 5500 miles didn't even begin to touch this oil. So even looking at it from a purely value standpoint, it could make sense to run this oil for very long drain intervals and not only run a very superior oil, but also potentially save money too.

 

[TiGeo]

Isn't pouring it effectively like Project Farm's ice louge test that is bad mouthed here?

 

[jeff78]

SAE 40 grade has been used in motorsports in both cars and motorcycles for quite a while.

You should definitely try the HPL full synthetic version as well. There should be significant difference vs the conventional VR1, especially at lower temps.

No doubt. For me low temp behavior is mostly academic though, since I don't ride my motorcycles in subfreezing temps. Hohn's flow test video just piqued my curiosity.

HPL offers an SAE30 as well as a No-VII 10W-30 and a Euro No-VII 10W-30, in increasing order of performance and cost.

@High Performance Lubricants what are the differences in base stocks and additives between your SAE30 and various No-VII 10W-30 oils?

 

[tired]

Isn't pouring it effectively like Project Farm's ice louge test that is bad mouthed here?

I think for many, the criticism of that is to show that one oil is "better" than another oil. It's the comparative nature of the ice louge test. Here, he's just trying to show that it flows just fine in 0F temps, enough that it would get sucked up into the oil pickup tube. He's not trying to award a medal to one oil because it flows millisecond faster than another oil.

 

[Hohn]

Isn't pouring it effectively like Project Farm's ice louge test that is bad mouthed here?

I admit I was cringing on the inside when I did it

 

[kschachn]

This is a good example of the closed- mindedness I’m hoping I can somewhat dispel.

I’ve posted UOA of the superb results I got with 15w-40 PCMO in a short trip application with lots of cold weather.

I’ve argued—and now demonstrated—that the cold flow (to a point;15F or warmer) of the SAE 40 is very close to the 15w-40 that is unquestionably working brilliantly for me in my area (backed by UOA).

At this point, there’s really nothing backing the reflexive opposition to this particular monograde but an emotional reflex overriding a willingness to consider challenging new information.

A good example of the goofy arguments in this thread that aren’t based in reality.

 

[Overfill]

I may give the HPL SAE40 a try, especially if it has good cleaning properties.

Double check your moly there. Its ~625ppm. Hectic for a wet clutch

 

[Hohn]

So then, this exercise proves nothing about SAE 40, generically speaking, being a suitable grade for his driving and conditions.

Precisely. This says nothing about any OTHER 40 grade monograde. I’ve specifically cautioned against extrapolating; if you’ve paid attention, you know that.

Only that if you buy this expensive boutique 40 grade, then you’ll be fine.

Well, “fine” from a cold crank perspective in my area or warmer. Superior in almost every other tradeoff. Cleaner, slicker, longer lasting.

What’s the purpose of choosing a spendy boutique 40 grade where a non-boutique yet high quality multi-grade would yield the same results in cold weather? For instance, you can get Castrol Edge Euro 5W-40 at Walmart for $27.48 per jug right now. Seems a fools errand to “prove” that this particular SAE 40 is suitable.

This where we see you haven’t been following along. Since you’ve missed the rationale, I’ll repeat it for you:

This oil is:
1) high hths
2) no VII
3) leveraging the proven superb results of the 15w-40 sibling.


Now, if you think Castro Edge Euro can keep wear iron under 1ppm/1k miles for 5200 miles while keeping 8+ TBN, having zero change in viscosity, and plenty of oxidation margin to go 10K plus miles while being used in a brutal duty cycle of short trips in starts down to the teens, well then you aren’t familiar with the performance of that Castrol.

The reason this seems like a fool’s errand is because you either haven’t bothered to read or haven’t understood what you read. Hint: search my username and “Sae 40.”

The only real fool’s errand I’m indulging is explaining the same points repeatedly to those who prefer to lodge ignorant criticisms rather than read and levy intelligent criticism.

I’ve explained my rationale completely and precisely on multiple occasions in both this thread and the civic Type R thread.

If a member doesn’t understand still, that’s on them and no one else.