Patman
Staff member
Title is now changed, although I used the proper term of grade instead of weight
HPL SAE 40 PCMO
- Thread starter Hohn
- Start date
Reading this thread it's clear that the HPL PCMO 40 is not a standard 40 weight oil. As mentioned, due to the base stock used, it's more like a 20/25W-40 oil. That's quite different from a regular 40 weight, which doesn't flow as well when cold. It would be very interesting to have proper data on what the W test rating would be.
My general hesitation regarding these thicky oil threads is the unknown. Thick oil may force the bypass to open unexpectedly. Could it cause filter tearing? We just had a thread here where someone blew out an oil filter seal on a cold start. How does the thick oil affect the internal oil devices that employ the oil like hydraulic fluid, such as cam timing or cylinder deactivation systems? I just don't see the point of risking the unknown when multi grade 40 weight oils are available and common. This HPL does open the door to the possibility, but whether to use it or not is a personal decision.
Is there anyone in the BITOG community going to buy some of this oil based on this thread? If so, what is the application and temp usage range?
My general hesitation regarding these thicky oil threads is the unknown. Thick oil may force the bypass to open unexpectedly. Could it cause filter tearing? We just had a thread here where someone blew out an oil filter seal on a cold start. How does the thick oil affect the internal oil devices that employ the oil like hydraulic fluid, such as cam timing or cylinder deactivation systems? I just don't see the point of risking the unknown when multi grade 40 weight oils are available and common. This HPL does open the door to the possibility, but whether to use it or not is a personal decision.
Is there anyone in the BITOG community going to buy some of this oil based on this thread? If so, what is the application and temp usage range?
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I'm not sure I would do this, but it sounds like the HPL 40-grade PCMO would be good for use here from April through October.
If I were to put on a lot of miles over those six to seven months, it could be a good fit, saving me an oil change partway through.
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That’s my stance as well. Basically, “why?” when totally suitable and fantastic options already exist that are more standard and easier for the consumer grasp at surface level.
It's just playing games with SAE grading nomenclature. Pointless when No-VII 10w40 exists (and if you wanted to pretend that doesn't have a winter grade test result, you could call that SAE 40 too).
Those are valid concerns for the most part.
I'll try to address some of those concerns, or at least respond to how I considered them:
- Bypass opening
- If we mean lube pump bypass or-- as I prefer to call it-- relief, this is very unlikely. This is because when we're starting the engine and idling it, the oil pump output is very small. Which means it's very hard to generate the 60-70-80psi or whatever to open the lube pump relief under these conditions. I'm not going to start my car with cold very thick oil and then rev it to 4000-5000 rpm where the oil pump could easily go into relief from excess oil pressure. Before it sees anything like that RPM, the oil is much warmer and thinner.
- If we mean filter bypass, it is also very unlikely, but IMO more likely than the lube pump relief. We need to remember that the filter bypass only cares about media pressure drop, not what the total system oil pressure is. With cold, thick oil, it's possible even at low flow rates to exceed the bypass rating of the filter.
- MY Answer: Honda's validation would have had to include some extremely cold starts, much colder than what I am attempting here. So if they have validated 6000cP CCS viscosity at -40C/F, then 6000cP is the acceptable limit. I can choose any oil that stays above that point in my local temperatures. The 15w-40 is 6200cP at -20C. As I type this, we're having the coldest ambients of the winter so far-- 10F when I drove into the office this morning. That's -12C. So even on today's weather, the 15w-40 is sufficient because it will be around 3500-4500 cP or less. Would the monograde 40 still be startable? I don't know. A day like today would be a real test. The monograde is likely in the 12,000 cP range at -20C. That's about twice as thick. That's not a small difference one can casually dismiss, although my current 15w-40 shows no signs of laboring at 20F, so I expect the SAE 40 would be fine even at double the viscosity. Because I'm not at -20C, I'm at more like -15C on the low end.
- My risk mitigation plan: First mix SAE 40 and 15w-40 at a 3:2 ratio and assess the practical winter startability of this blend, before going to full SAE 40 only. Given my mileage accumulation, it might be awhile before I can winter test the blend. I might have to drain my 15w-40 early (around 8k) to accommodate the test opportunity.
- Can rupture
- Very unlikely barring a filter defect and/or a stuck oil pump relief. NO countermeasure needed
- Media collapse/tearing
- Not concerned, the bypass valve limits max delta P and there's some margin even above rated bypass restriction. Media degradation is primarily a moisture problem, not a thick oil problem.
- Hydraulic control functions
- This is practically speaking the biggest risk because it's the hardest to quantify. My Accord and my GX both have cam phasers (VVT) and the Accord also has VTEC.
- The GX has a hydraulic-only VVTI system that isn't designed for rapid response. (in contrast to the 1UR-FSE in the LS460 has that has electric/hydraulic). It's simple a reliable and uses use PMW on the oil control valves at the phasers. Any sluggishness from thicker oil has not been discernible by me, and the smooth and incredibly "plush" oiling of the heavy GTL bases is so smooth that any unhappiness would stick out like a sore thumb.
- My Accord's K20C4 uses as similar VVT cam phase arrangement, but adds VTEC to the exhaust cams only. The intakes are fixed lift and duration. The idea is that the forced induction obviates the main benefit of additional intake lift or duration. The Accord likewise is just stunningly smooth with the HPL oil. On the highway, it feels like you're driving a Silver Spur with silence and gobs of instant torque to accelerate you with no drama. Just push the pedal and feel it pull you along.
- Conclusion: In my vehicles, no adverse hydraulic effects whatsoever have been observed from using an oil grade much thicker than recommended. I'd expect a transient response penalty when cold, but again-- I'm not asking the engine to do abrupt transients when cold, because I'm not an abusive operator. When warmed up, the 40 grade behaves like a slightly cooler 30 or 20 grade, so it's well within the design parameters of the engine. I just get the bonus of extra smoothness and very low wear.
- This is practically speaking the biggest risk because it's the hardest to quantify. My Accord and my GX both have cam phasers (VVT) and the Accord also has VTEC.
There may indeed be no point to trying the SAE 40. I think the strongest argument against it is the 15w-40. In my GX at least, the 15w-40 is delivering a performance that realistically cannot be surpassed, and likely would be very hard for almost any other oil to equal. It's IMO an incredible balanced, useful, real world oil that most people should try anywhere a 20 grade or heavier is specified.
The SAE 40 however is the indulgence of the purist in me, the part that is simply not willing to settle for excellent, never mind sufficient. I want the *best* possible, and I'm willing to take some calculated small risks along the way in pursuit of that.
I've been rewarded by this risk taking with the 15w-40. Its performance is really hard to overstate. I don't think anyone but me was thinking "yeah, the 15w-40 would be perfect for my vehicles currently recommending 0w-20". But indeed it has proven to be exceptional. The oil analysis shows it, the intangible human perceptions back it up also. The engines both just have a smoothness and effortlessness that must be experienced to appreciate.
So I'm trying to perhaps double down (ok, not quite a full double) and see what eliminating that last hint of VII might afford.
But if I can run-- quite successfully-- a 15w-40 in Indiana with regular winter temps in the teens, what the excuse for the Texan or Californian? How can it be "too thick" for them but not for me? Heck, if and when I switch over fully to SAE 40, what then shall the Floridian say? Or the Tennessean?
The point here is that I think I can move gather the evidence that justifies recalibrating what we think we know about just how thick a winter grade can be and still be acceptable. We need to adapt our perceptions to the realities and capabilities of modern premium oil formulations, at least as represented by a particular highly capable formulator.
Thank you for the continued helpful replies.
So in your view, you'd either run (or say recommend to family or friends), if I was going to distill it into one line, Valvoline Restore and Protect 5W-30, a full SAPS Euro oil with HTHS >3.5 (we don't have GPFs here) or a very high quality oil like HPL with an HTHS >3.5, ideally closer to 4.2, if someone was willing to spend the money?
Red Line's Euro 5W-40 (link) packs an HTHS at a whopping 4.4. Seems like it would run very clean with its PAO and ester formulation.
Their regular 5W-30 (link) (non-Euro but still recommended for VW 502 and LL-01...so must have a Euro add pack??) has an HTHS at 3.7 even.
That’s a fairly close summary, although I do not recommend any Redline oil to friends, despite being a former user. I’ll try a more thorough “heirarchy of recommendation” in the form of a decision tree in a subsequent post because I’d like to have it be more precise.
Sounds great!
I wish I could split their PCMO SAE 30 and SAE 40 to get 15w and 3.5 HTHS. I do like Synnestic 12
Before I get to my logic tree, some anchor points that underpin my thinking:
- I treat all vehicles as if they are out of warranty because warranty constraints exist to protect the OEM—not to optimize YOUR ownership experience.
- I consider but often deviate from official OEM recommendations not because I know better, but because I have different goals and limitations than they do. Different constraints, different goals, different approaches.
- It’s often worth considering a 40-grade just to eliminate the limitations of ILSAC and Energy Conserving designations. The formulation limits aren’t worth the tiny MPG improvement. 40-grades don’t have a maximum phosphorus value in API SP, for example, allowing higher ZDDP levels if they work for the formula.
- As a bare minimum, go one viscosity grade thicker than the OEM recommendation. Two grades are warranted in engines known to dilute the oil with fuel.
- Finally: cleanliness >>> wear protection. Engines today overwhelmingly die from deposit accumulation, not wear. Most wear-out failure modes now are driven by deposit accumulation (bore polishing, ring sticking).
The decision tree is shown at the bottom.
A couple of elaborations:
- I assume a Euro engine is going to be quite dirty inside and needs short runs of Valvoline Restore and Protect before regular Euro oils are back on the table. The antiwear and EP in Valvoline Restore and Protect is sufficiently protective, IMO, for the short <5k runs needed for the cleaning regimen. I’m guessing some Europhile may disagree with me on this point, so I defer to them. @edyvw or @TiGeo may have thoughts here and insights that correct misapprehensions on my part. (I don’t know Euro cars or requirements that well).
- Valvoline Restore and Protect is the default, and you only get to indulge other oil choices once the engine is confirmed clean and/or you have a bona fide special case that preempts the use of Valvoline Restore and Protect. For example, say you have elevated temperatures from track usage. Valvoline Restore and Protect is probably a poor choice because it tops out at 5W-30 and might collapse at temps of 280°F or higher.
- Arctic cold conditions are one of the few cases where I’d recommend the 0W-20 indefinitely, especially the excellent ESP X2 20-grades. SUPERB cold flow. The reason the HPL option here is a 30-grade is because you get superb cold flow while gaining more dilution tolerance (there’s a LOT of cold idling in harsh winters, and fuel dilution occurs even in engines not known for it. Water can be a problem too).
- The Premium Plus PCMO makes an appearance as the premium hybrid recommendation too because of the heinous start/stop requiring both very good cold flow while having great film retention when warm (30-grade).
- Dilution is a killer of both viscosity and OCI. If you want to keep a normal OCI, you need a bump in viscosity margin and some stout add pack (TBN, detergency, antioxidant). This can disqualify Valvoline Restore and Protect based on the max of 5W-30. It did for me.
This is not super scientific and it’s sort of shoot-from-the-hip. Mostly it’s just 1) start with Valvoline Restore and Protect to ensure clean, then 2) move to whatever oil can keep it clean while better meeting your needs.
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edyvw
$50 site donor 2026
Man, I was in a meeting today for 3 hours with various tables, charts, or, as Bob Gates, ex SecDef, would call, "Death by PowerPoint."
Let me recover, I will get to it
I always appreciate your posts here my man. Just for reference though, my HPL primary oil for my Limited had 434ppm of moly when sampled at 7200mi. That’s a fluid specifically made for a clutch environment. I think there is more to clutch slippage in an oil formula than moly based on my experience of 1.
He’d be called SecWar nowadays, but I digressMan, I was in a meeting today for 3 hours with various tables, charts, or, as Bob Gates, ex SecDef, would call, "Death by PowerPoint."
Let me recover, I will get to it
4wd
$50 site donor 2026
I buy a SuperTech SAE30 that’s SP …
Royal Purple does mono synthetic …
Odds are Quicksilver 25W-40 is just mono
(Merc does not like VM) …
I hear that. Available time and energy get less and less every year. I've drifted away from religious service schedules and do it when the weather is nicer/bareable. Maybe it's 5 months 4k or 6 months and 8k... I'm done laying on a frozen concrete floor or the extreme opposite. So, I'm with you, all my stuff is all season.
This is brilliant. Should be pinned here and then hang it in the Louvre.
One question though. Is the bubble with the Euro spec, is that saying that you need a Euro spec but don't have a GPF/DF? Because if you did, you'd need an oil like a VW 504 oil. If you have a diesel, I think you need an ACEA C3 oil.
I'm curious how you chose Valvoline EP as the standard for long OCIs? Given @Glenda W. 's experience with it, it is basically blacklisted for me. It can't handle a well-cared for boxer engine on short OCIs. I'd argue Mobil 1 Extended Performance or Castrol EDGE Extended Performance for OTS long OCI options. Glenda's friend went double the distance she did before their Subaru burned oil (120,000 miles on Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 before oil burning compared to Glenda's 60k).
One other thing I noticed. There should be another branch at the fuel dilution present bubble that is for OCI duration desired. Then branch to 5000 miles or extended duration. Then on each of those branches, you can have normal or extended duration drains for Euro spec. You could argue all of them are long drain oils though. Or might need to make an earlier branch for a hybrid, because maybe you shouldn't run extended OCIs on hybrids anyway. Basically, if you have no fuel dilution, no Euro spec, no hybrid, and don't want extended OCIs, you end up in a loop. There needs to be an end for a "no" after no fuel dilution present. I've thought about making this algorithm to show new members with the question "what oil" before, so I had thought about it in the past but was still gathering experiences. This is great!
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4wd
$50 site donor 2026
Lost a fantastic 5 year ME to PowerPoint - he was so good with them that Stevie Wonder could see the right decision …Man, I was in a meeting today for 3 hours with various tables, charts, or, as Bob Gates, ex SecDef, would call, "Death by PowerPoint."
Let me recover, I will get to it
Now stuck in the planning group doing PP packs all day …
I think I was thinking 502/00/505.00 type applications. Honestly this tree is such an absurd oversimplification I should haven't even tried to give it as much resolution as I did. I frankly should have boiled it down to:
1) Start with Valvoline Restore and Protect 5w-30 unless it absolutely cannot work for you (arctic, etc)
2) Move to whatever else if and only if a) the engine is clean and 2) you have desires (OCI, viscosity, etc) Valvoline Restore and Protect cannot meet.
This is another glaring weakness in the tree because I couldn't really think of any non-HPL oil I was willing to take to "extended drain." I can't think of any oil marketed for up to 20k miles that I'd be willing to take all the way to 20k miles. So this is yet another part of the tree that probably should have been pruned at the concept stage.
I prefer your version of the tree if you don't mind sharing it here.
My personal tree has now gotten VERY simple:
- Is the person soliciting recommendations insisting on OEM viscosity and warranty type protections?
- Send them to the dealer and tell them you can't help them. They are coming to you looking for validation, not advice.
- Have they already started using Valvoline Restore and Protect?
- Yes, continue until clean
- No, start until clean.
- Once clean, move to whatever floats your boat for viscosity and formulation depending on whether you are prioritizing spec compliance (i.e. going back to Euro oil), long drain (HPL PCMO) etc. Following general advice of +1 grade for non diluters and +2 grades for diluters.
