HPL NO VII 10w20

[Azimuth]

No, they were formulated specifically to be VII free, that doesn't mean they are the best performing product line. Their higher tier VII-containing oils (star VII) are basically shear-free as well, but may perform better. As @High Performance Lubricants as noted on here in the past, incorporating VII's can offer performance improvements.

What sorts of performance improvements? Genuinely curious.

Take for example the following oils:

* 5W-30 P-PCMO. HTHS: 3.216 (star VII)
* 5W-30 PP-PCMO. HTHS: 3.161 (star VII + PAO)
* 5W-30 No-VII PCMO. HTHS: 3.399 (PAO)

The No-VII also seems to have the lowest MRV values, followed by PP PCMO, then P PCMO.

If I'm looking for the best protection (in this grade), why shouldn't I use No-VII given it has the highest HTHS?

 

[userfriendly]

What sorts of performance improvements? Genuinely curious.

Take for example the following oils:

* 5W-30 P-PCMO. HTHS: 3.216 (star VII)
* 5W-30 PP-PCMO. HTHS: 3.161 (star VII + PAO)
* 5W-30 No-VII PCMO. HTHS: 3.399 (PAO)

The No-VII also seems to have the lowest MRV values, followed by PP PCMO, then P PCMO.

If I'm looking for the best protection (in this grade), why shouldn't I use No-VII given it has the highest HTHS?

Yes, the no VII blends have the highest HTHS vs KV100C viscosity.
For engines that are oil pressure sensitive, meaning they need high oil pressure, VIIs can achieve that without a corresponding power robbing and heat generating increase of HTHS.

 

[OVERKILL]

What sorts of performance improvements? Genuinely curious.

Take for example the following oils:

* 5W-30 P-PCMO. HTHS: 3.216 (star VII)
* 5W-30 PP-PCMO. HTHS: 3.161 (star VII + PAO)
* 5W-30 No-VII PCMO. HTHS: 3.399 (PAO)

The No-VII also seems to have the lowest MRV values, followed by PP PCMO, then P PCMO.

If I'm looking for the best protection (in this grade), why shouldn't I use No-VII given it has the highest HTHS?

Yes, lots of PAO will make sure the MRV is low, lol.

Another one to compare, since it's also PAO-based, is the Euro 5W-30:
HTHS: 3.597cP
MRV: 17,699cP
CCS: 5,557cP

So, technically the Euro 5W-30 has the highest HTHS And it's higher than the No-VII Euro 5W-30 (3.566cP). MRV isn't listed for that one unfortunately, but the Euro 5W-30 also has the lowest CCS visc.

 

[Azimuth]

So, technically the Euro 5W-30 has the highest HTHS And it's higher than the No-VII Euro 5W-30 (3.566cP). MRV isn't listed for that one unfortunately, but the Euro 5W-30 also has the lowest CCS visc.

Yep, I noticed that the 5W-30 Euro had the highest HTHS of the bunch. But it is a different add pack from what I understand.

My question as more hypothetical: assuming we want to use non-Euro API SP add pack for whatever reason, wouldn't the 5W-30 No-VII PCMO offer the best protection of the bunch? Are there any downsides to running it compared to the VII offerings? I noticed it had less P and Z compared to their VII PCMO, but that seems to make sense given that there aren't VIIs to shear, and the base oil(s) doing more of the heavy lifting.

 

[OVERKILL]

Yep, I noticed that the 5W-30 Euro had the highest HTHS of the bunch. But it is a different add pack from what I understand.

My question as more hypothetical: assuming we want to use non-Euro API SP add pack for whatever reason, wouldn't the 5W-30 No-VII PCMO offer the best protection of the bunch? Are there any downsides to running it compared to the VII offerings? I noticed it had less P and Z compared to their VII PCMO, but that seems to make sense given that there aren't VIIs to shear, and the base oil(s) doing more of the heavy lifting.

If they use the same additive package (Dexos for the non-Euro SP oils) then they should all have the same amount of ZDDP.

Other than fuel economy, I would assume there isn't really any downside. ILSAC oils are generally blended to be close to the 3.0cP HTHS mark, while these Euro 5W-30's are blended for the 3.5cP HTHS and higher mark based on the approvals the additive package is designed for. Of course the artifact of having no VII's is a higher HTHS than is typical for RC oils, so if your equipment is more than adequately protected with a 3.0cP HTHS, having more isn't likely to bring any real benefit either.

I personally prefer the non-neutered additive package of a Euro lube as I see that as a more "no holds barred" formulation approach with no constraints placed on phosphorous. In my mind, that's more important than small variances in HTHS.

 

[Azimuth]

If they use the same additive package (Dexos for the non-Euro SP oils) then they should all have the same amount of ZDDP.

I was looking at this VOA, and this UOA I wonder if something is wrong with the reports. This UOA is closer to what you are describing. Hmm, weird.

I personally prefer the non-neutered additive package of a Euro lube as I see that as a more "no holds barred" formulation approach with no constraints placed on phosphorous. In my mind, that's more important than small variances in HTHS.

Incidentally, the HPL Euro 0W-20 and Euro 0/5W-30 are mid SAPS (VW 508/C20 and VW504/C30 respectively), which I presume you consider neutered

Now on the other hand, the No-VII Euro 5W-30 is full SAPS. HPL don't seem to offer Euro full SAPS 5w-30 other than the No-VII option. I know they offer a FS 0w-30.

 

[OVERKILL]

I was looking at this VOA, and this UOA I wonder if something is wrong with the reports. This UOA is closer to what you are describing. Hmm, weird.


Incidentally, the HPL Euro 0W-20 and Euro 0/5W-30 are mid SAPS (VW 508/C20 and VW504/C30 respectively), which I presume you consider neutered

Now on the other hand, the No-VII Euro 5W-30 is full SAPS. HPL don't seem to offer Euro full SAPS 5w-30 other than the No-VII option. I know they offer a FS 0w-30.

C3 phos limit is still higher than API, but yeah, I'd prefer the no-VII full-SAPS add pack in that scenario

I had OAI re-run a VOA because the levels were low. They came back with the updated VOA and they were higher. I'd assume you are seeing the same there.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

But it thickens up to almost a 30 weight


No matter I got some on the way.

It doesn’t “thicken” per se, it’s simply a better built oil than the 30 grade shelf oils. It’s not HPLs fault they choose the best materials vs targeting a price point. It’s probably one of the absolute most robust year-round oils available for any vehicle south of a tangent perpendicular to the southern tip of Lake Michigan!

 

[53' Stude]

In layman’s terms it’s fine for my 02’ Dakota. It says 10w or 5w30 acceptable so we will give 10a20 a shot

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

So we make up a grade to a oil because of what may or may not happen to an oil.
will the HTHS of the oil increase along with it why do we label oils of what they are than.

Respectfully, what do you mean “make up a grade of oil”?

A 10w rating has specifications that must be met to call any oil a 10w.
A 20 grade has specifications that must be met to call any oil a 20 grade oil.

Just because nobody else on the market blends an oil that meets both of those specifications at the same time does not mean HPL is “making up” anything. It simply means they’re willing to blend outside the norms, but not outside the specs.

There are rules on the playing field to level the oil market for anyone willing to respect the specifications. HPL has demonstrated a willingness to think to the limits of the specs, not inside the limitations of the popular market. There’s a HUGE difference there.

 

[53' Stude]

Respectfully, what do you mean “make up a grade of oil”?

A 10w rating has specifications that must be met to call any oil a 10w.
A 20 grade has specifications that must be met to call any oil a 20 grade oil.

Just because nobody else on the market blends an oil that meets both of those specifications at the same time does not mean HPL is “making up” anything. It simply means they’re willing to blend outside the norms, but not outside the specs.

There are rules on the playing field to level the oil market for anyone willing to respect the specifications. HPL has demonstrated a willingness to think to the limits of the specs, not inside the limitations of the popular market. There’s a HUGE difference there.

Chris: we will never be able to reach the uneducated. That’s all I got.

 

[TiGeo]

Why woudn't the cSt @100deg C put in the 20 grade category?

 

[#18FAN]

Why woudn't the cSt @100deg C put in the 20 grade category?

It is a 20 grade what was meant is we can't say we'll maybe just wait long enough and it's a 30 grade. Full disclosure i have the 10w20 for a vehicle in Phoenix AZ.

 

[53' Stude]

It is a 20 grade what was meant is we can't say we'll maybe just wait long enough and it's a 30 grade. Full disclosure i have the 10w20 for a vehicle in Phoenix AZ.

I think David at HPL may have more insight on the NO VII oils. Nice talked to him on the phone.

 

[TiGeo]

When I was looking at running HPL in my Sportwagen and fighting viscosity loss/shearing, I spoke to David and his advice was use the Euro 5W40 vs. the No-VII stuff....HTHS>4 and Star VIIs trump the No-VII blends for me. My posts with UOAs are easy to find and while dropping some viscosity which is going to happen, it has performed in that respect better than any other oil I have used plus I have the high HTHS which is really what I'm after here.

 

[Azimuth]

When I was looking at running HPL in my Sportwagen and fighting viscosity loss/shearing, I spoke to David and his advice was use the Euro 5W40 vs. the No-VII stuff....HTHS>4 and Star VIIs trump the No-VII blends for me. My posts with UOAs are easy to find and while dropping some viscosity which is going to happen, it has performed in that respect better than any other oil I have used plus I have the high HTHS which is really what I'm after here.

Does anyone know what is the HTHS of the 10W-40 No-VII, both Euro and non-Euro? It's not in their PDS, but it is available for sale it seems. I'm curious if that is why he advised you to use 5W-40, since the no-VII does not come in 5W.

 

[TiGeo]

Does anyone know what is the HTHS of the 10W-40 No-VII, both Euro and non-Euro? It's not in their PDS, but it is available for sale it seems. I'm curious if that is why he advised you to use 5W-40, since the no-VII does not come in 5W.

Where did you see a 10W40 no VII?

 

[53' Stude]

Where did you see a 10W40 no VII?

here is the “euro no VII” 10w40

 

[SC Maintenance]

) likely violating the recipe for the SN approved add pack.

Its not SN - its only diesel rated.

I only know this because I am always on the lookout for a better blend / conventional oil for my beloved Xterra.

 

[RDY4WAR]

Its not SN - its only diesel rated.

I only know this because I am always on the lookout for a better blend / conventional oil for my beloved Xterra.

The post I responded to stated "FA-4 / SN". It would likely be the same scenario for a CJ-4 or CK-4 add pack as well. The recipes for the approvals offer very little deviation.