How well do mechanics recommend motor oil?

[satterfi]

I think your average mechanic knows what he needs to know. "Use a decent oil and filter and change often". I believe most make that recommendation and that's good enough for 99% of the population.

Does a mechanic need to know what the oxidation products are of long chain hydrocarbons or what ZDDP is? I don't think so and considering how little people care what goes into their car it doesn't matter.

[ April 27, 2003, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: satterfi ]

 

[Pablo]

Yes 2421 - please do not take this personally. I agree, most people abuse their vehicles and then blame anyone except themselves.

I was answering from the point of view of MOST mechanics I have encountered. Do I think all mechanics need to be tribologists? NOPE!

[ April 27, 2003, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: Pablo ]

 

[Mystic]

I don't want for mechanics who come to this site to think that I am putting them down or anything. My Dad was a mechanic-I wish I could repair cars and trucks like he could. I have known and know right now several mechanics. But an awful lot of the mechanics I have known and know do seem to depend on hearsay evidence when it comes to motor oils. I really don't know how anybody can determine actual motor oil quality without having virgin oil samples and used oil samples checked out at labs. Just to give an example, a lot of the mechanics I know like Valvoline motor oil-why, I don't know. Maybe because of advertising, maybe because Valvoline used to be used in racing cars. But people at this web site who have tested motor oils at labs say that Valvoline does not test as well as Castrol, Chevron, etc.(motor oils of the same quality level). There is a disconnect here-can everybody see that? Maybe mechanics need a class in lubrication. However, let me bring something else up. Some vehicles today apparently are sludge monsters. Apparently the cars are designed to run hotter to improve fuel mileage, and regardless if the driver is using conventional or synthetic oil, 3000 mile oil changes might be needed. I have also heard that in the case of the Saturn, because the car has a metal timing chain, that 3000 mile oil changes are required. I own a Saturn myself, and if there really is a valid reason for 3000 mile oil changes with the Saturn, then I will continue using Chevron oil and changing it every 3000 miles (and putting 3 oz. Auto-RX in the oil). I have heard of some cars, vans, and perhaps trucks and SUVs that sludge up even with synthetic oil. There was even information on th internet about that. People would have sludged up engines even if they were using Mobil 1.

 

[Bror Jace]

Chris, you obviously should not take this personally but many of us know some parts-swappers who were good with their hands ... but that does not make them knowledgeable about oil.

Unfortunately, that lack of real knowledge doesn't prevent some from voicing an opinion ... or outright bullying people about a topic they obviously don't know anything about.

I had access to a shop staffed by some seriously idnirint wrench-turners. They could swap brakes, alternators, tires, hydraulic hoses on forklifts ... but anything more complicated than that was a crapshoot at best.

They also resented me ... and like to "prove" to me that "book learnin" wasn't really "wurth nuttin" and that college made me "stupider than I was before an' I went in."

These guys were a collection of REALLY bad stereotype and were full of all sorts of pearls of wisdom ... or maybe just wizz. I remember them recommending any NON-DETERGENT oils for a diesel engine. "Any oil will do, long as it's "non-Deeetergent."

Did I mention many of them were hicks?

I wonder why nothing that went into their shop ran worth a darn for long? I remember one of these rocket scientists putting a vacuum line on my '68 Camaro's tranny. They used a really cheap piece of plastic hose instead of fuel line and it cracked because of the engine compartment heat. I thought I had lost my tranny for a while. I ordered a new vacuum modulator to replace the nearly brand-new B&M they said was no good.

The knucklehead that did it said I must'a been racin' and blew the 3rd gear out of the tranny. Gosh these guys were stupid.

I must have a million stories like that from those guys ...

--- Bror Jace

 

[J]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mystic:
How well does the typical mechanic recommend motor oil? Or another way to put it-how well does the typical mechanic know lubrication? I know of a lot of mechanics who recommend Valvoline oil, which does not seem to test at the top among people at this web site that have motor oils sent to labs. I remember when I owned a Toyota car and that dealership, at least, was in the process of changing from recommending Pennzoil oil to Valvoline oil. I have had mechanics tell me not to use Pennzoil or Quaker State, because 'they cause sludge in the engine.' Well, Quaker State has not been tested much by people at this site, but Pennzoil is the favorite of some at this web site. I know of only one mechanic who recommends Castrol (a woman mechanic in Santa Fe, NM), and Castrol seems to look good in testing. Another person who recommended Castrol to me was another woman working in a dealership Service Department. She let me know that Castrol was what she used in her own Saturn car, even though the dealership used Quaker State. Kind of a hint, huh? I would be welling to bet that none of the mechanics I know has even heard of Schaeffer's Oil.

---

Hi,

It took me some doing to convince a friend
of mine to take her turbo-charged Saab off of
a steady diet of dino oil which was recommended
by her mechanic.

Mechanics are surprisingly illogical about some
things, especially something as controversial
as motor oil.

Jae

 

[Chris 2421]

I'm not offended at all-really.And I have no beef with anyone voicing their opinion.I honestly belive that anyones opinion should be heard.My point is that we are unappreciated,and have always been looked down upon,been called thieves etc.Belive me,I could go on.There are some of "us" who are "parts changers"and there are some of "us" who have not maintained ethical work practices,but I do understand how the average consumer feels when taking their car to any shop for repairs-they feel that they are at the shops mercy,because they don't know about the inner workings of an automobile.Belive me,I would feel the same way if I had to take my TV in the shop,because I know zero about a TV set.

But with the way the cars are made today,as a mechanic(technician is the current phrase,just as a junkyard is a recycling yard)you have to know more than the old "57 Chevy mechanic" did years and years ago.I cannot count how many schools I've attended in just the last 5 years.There is so much that changes year to year.The next big change will be electrical systems,the 12 volt system is ancient,and will be replaced by a 42 volt system.Why?? Less wiring,less interphasing of various modules.The Jeep Grand Cherokee has 12 different modules that communicate with each other,just using that for an example.

Some info that you folks have been told,I'll admit is wrong(the Saturn timing chain comes to mind)and that is sad,because it does make my profession look bad.But again,I'll say that most mechanics are pretty knowledgeable.They may not be able to tell you what actually is in their favorite brand of oil(and Valvoline stinks in my opinion) but they can tell you what cleans well,and has good protection.

Synthetics...I personally do not use them.They are good,but I don't use them because I change oil at 3K.Another reason I use SuperTech,at .84 a qt,it's simple economics in my book.

Enough of my soap box,and again, there is no offense taken at all.Lets get back to what this site is all about...OIL!!

And please disregard any spelling errors,I need to get a new keyboard.I can reed,right and spel

[ April 28, 2003, 02:21 AM: Message edited by: Chris 2421 ]

 

[Spector]

I recently asked the mgr at an Adcance Auto what oil they sold the most of. His answer, whatever is on sale that week. That is the American public in a nutshell.

As to mechanics knowing oil, as noted, change at 3000 and it makes no difference so that is what they were bred on and have experience with and that is what they recommend. Plus, it brings the customer back for additional looks at other components that could be going, not bad as long as the mechanic is ethical.

My Toyota dealer was putting in Penzoil 15W40 in all their cars and did not even "STOCK" a 10W30 that was the recommended oil for the engine. Until I complained and Toyota got on their case did they begin to offer it. Why, well, no doubt they got a great price from the Pensoil rep on that weight.

 

[Jimbo]

The engines on modern cars and trucks are not worn out by the time the body rusts out. So, how are mechanics supposed to see the results of different lubricants. They see the same advertising that we do plus, maybe, stuff from the sales rep that visits the shop.

Modern technicians have to solve complex electrical problems today. Very few tear down engines or drive trains.

I wrenched on cars while I was studying Mechanical Engineering in the early 1970's. Since I was working primarily on European imports, I did a lot of engine teardowns. Only once did I see and engine bottom end failure (on a Fiat). Cranks , rods and bearings were usually good on cars that had head, valve or piston failures.

Opinions were formed based on what I saw and what the car owners told me they used. This was anecdotal, but the best information I had at the time. Castrol and Valvoline were the most popular brands for import drivers back then and both left behind a lot of deposits. Pennzoil left engines cleaner, hence I was a Pennzoil fan for a long time. Today we have better lubricant chemistry and scientific oil analysis.

 

[Intelman34]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spector:
I recently asked the mgr at an Adcance Auto what oil they sold the most of. His answer, whatever is on sale that week. That is the American public in a nutshell.

---

Also working at an auto parts store, I fully agree with what he has to say. Whatever oil is on sale is what people buy. People come in an ask specifically for whatever is on sale.

 

[Steve S]

I am a retired mechanic or technician or what ever .I
have worked mostly in fleet work. the last 17 years at a forklift dealership.I have 92 college units in upgrading my skills I never had a class on lubricants. There has been lots of lubrication info in trade magazines ,Amsoil has lots of info on the basics. Autos are throw away where big trucks and heavy "industrial"equipment push ideas for long life .I use synthetics depending on application and need .IMO frequent oil changes can do more good than harm . When applications require synthetics there are no substitutes . Be gentle guys.

 

[medic]

I just want to agree with the others. While there are a few mechanics that know their oils, most don't need to. The few that do, are usually specialized in a certain few manufacturers and know what works well with those few applications.

I know a guy that builds / rebuilds Harley Davidson engines for a living. He has seen nothing but good result from Spectro oil. He has used in in almost all Harley applications from racing to touring & it seems to hold up great. He had had analysis done on it multiple times, and sometimes he sends in an oil analysis before he'll take apart an engine. The bad part is that this guy spends at least 15 hours a week just keeping up with new technology. Imagine if he worked on other makes of Motorcycles too. That would be 60 hours a week just to keep up with a few major brands. And then oils? I'd quit.

 

[satterfi]

New technology and Harley Davidson? A couple of milliseconds a week ought to do it.

 

[Mystic]

I brought up this topic because I thought it was a fair and important question (how well do mechanics recommend motor oil?). I did not intend to harm the feelings of auto mechanics-my Dad was a mechanic for a very long time. I think this discussion has brought up the importance of this web site-a web site like this is needed to obtain real information about motor oils, oil filters, etc. How many sites are there like this one on the internet? I submit to you that there are very few. I think it is important for people to try to obtain real information rather than listen to all of the stuff you can hear from mechanics, your friends, etc. I have heard an incredible amount of stuff about motor oils over the years. I think I could safely toss 99.99 per cent of all the garbage I have heard. There are always people saying that QS is bad and you should use Valvoline, synthetics are bad and you should use conventional, change oil every 2000 miles, Valvoline is bad and you should use Pennzoil, etc. Your next question should be, 'How do you know that'? Some guy may have seen a few dirty engines where the owners happened to have used QS, or whatever. It probably does not matter a great deal what oil you use if you are going with 3000 mile oil changes, as long as you use the correct viscosity for your vehicle, and use the corect quality of oil (SL for gasoline). However, if I find out good information that Brand X is somewhat better than the other brands and costs the same (or Brand X may even cost less), I will go with brand X. When it comes to extended oil changes, I think more research is in order. You definitely need a good oil, a good oil filter, etc. People at this web site are willing to send in oil samples of virgin and used oil and get them checked out at labs. And these people are willing to display their results. I can't think of any other good way to find out about motor oils. And intelligent and skillful people at this site conduct oil filters tests, etc. How else can we find out if a FRAM or a Wix or a Purolator or whatever is a better oil filter? I started using Chevron oil because of the information I was able to get at this site. Before that, I had been using Valvoline oil (the oil used by more mechanics in their own cars, according to the advertising). I discovered Auto-RX at this site. I will go one better. I know of no other site like this one on the internet.

 

[Bror Jace]

Chris, I’m glad you’re not personally offended. People here have heard less than credible things from mechanics about oil (and other things) and I think most of the specific complaints are valid. In the same vein, I took a turn at selling cars many moons ago and despite me being a swell guy, I had people accuse me right off the bat of trying to cheat them … undoubtedly because they had bad experiences in the past …or heard others’ horror stories. It’s kind of a doctors vs. lawyers thing. There is a lot of what you might want to call “historical institutional mistrust” between certain groups.

Back to topic, I really think it’s too much to ask a “tech” who is expected to be able to repair brake systems, fuel system, air conditioning/cooling, suspension, and electrical systems … possibly on a variety of makes … to also be as knowledgeable about lubrication as some formally educated chemists, tribologists, etc … There may be a few, but they are in the minority … as are people drawn to this site.

Aside from the keystone mechanics I mentioned above (every profession has their bad apples) I patronize a shop that specializes in a few foreign makes (unfortunately, not the one I just bought

) and they are very good … but lubrication is just sort of a given thing to them. Like you said, if you change the oil regularly, it’s usually not a big deal … and I think that’s the mechanic, er … “tech” way of looking at things: “The engine has clean oil in it, it’s running fine so there’s no problem. Next?”

That furrin’ auto shop uses CAM2 oil (and their other fluids) … which I know little about, but suspect is a “Tier 2” lubrication and fluids company and their oils are merely so-so. They have a good reputation in this area because of the racing fuel they sell …but that’s about it.

The quest for the “holy grail” of lubes interests only a precious few.

--- Bror Jace

 

[M Smith]

I was on resort island here in SC yesterday and stopped at a "high end" independent garage (for reasons unrelated to this posting) that is supposedly a "factory authorized warranty repair facility for Mercedes and BMW." Needless to say the parking lot was full of Jags, Porsches, M-B's, BMW's, etc. There in the oil change bay I spotted a 50 gal drum of Valvoline All Climate 10W-30. I asked the mgr. if that was the oil they used for all their oil changes, M-B, BMW, etc? Answer, "yes, that's what we use." I must have signaled my disapproval as felt it necessary to add that the Valvoline rep. treats them well and takes care of any problems they may have.

I consider this as evidence in support of a previous post that suggested car repair facilities likely use the oil and display the advertising banner of the oil co. that is offering the best deal du jour.

 

[Jimbo]

Valvoline All Climate 20W-50 is what my local BMW dealer uses unless the customer specifies and pays extra for the BMW/Castrol oil.

 

[Dr. T]

My experience too. Consumer be-ware! My BMW mechanic and dealership is also clueless when it comes to oil. Luckily BMW spells out the 'M'-spec oil for them...otherwise, they use the 5-30 for everyone...some may use 15-40 if you don't want synthetic. When I called a local M-Benz dealership, the told me they use M-1 5-30 for ALL the vehicles...AMG or otherwise. Didn't have a clue it was only ACEA A1 rated...the comment was "ACEA what?". But, another M-B dealership showed me the Q.S. 5-40 European Formula Synthetic...apparently they got the notice from M-Benz.

 

[MolaKule]

Most mechanics and shop people are clueless about lubricants. They use or recommend whatever they have been conditioned or brainwashed to push.

Edit: Most of them still think racers use the same oil that in the bottle on the shelf at Walmart or AutoZone, etc.

[ April 29, 2003, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]

 

[Mystic]

I want people to understand that I am not trying to put down mechanics (my father was a mechanic), and I am not trying to put down any brand of oil. Before I came across this web site I had been using Valvoline conventional oil and 3000 mile oil changes in my Saturn. After I came across this web site I noticed that some people seemed to feel that Valvoline was not that great of an oil. I checked out the oil analysis sections and discovered posts like '5W30 SJ/SL Retail' in the Virgin Oil Samples section. Since some people at this web site seem to think that Castrol and Chevron are good oils, I checked them out too. I dropped brand loyalty a long time ago. I started to use Chevron oil because of what I found out in the oil analysis sections. I also tried Auto-RX and I use it. I have totally no loyalty to any one brand of oil. I will use whatever tests the best. If I stay with 3000 mile oil changes, I will use the best conventional motor oil I can find. If I go to extended oil changes, I will probably use Schaeffer's Oil. A very long time ago I had brand loyalty and I was a FRAM and Pennzoil guy. Today, I don't buy based on brand, I try to buy based on quality.

 

[mf150]

My mechanic recommends Mobil 1, but since most people don't want to spend the extra money, he doesn't suggest synthetic unless it is specifically asked for. He has the 5QT bottles in the back. Personally, I go for Red Line, at 5,000 mile intervals.

[ April 30, 2003, 04:25 AM: Message edited by: mf150 ]