How to handle dangerously bad work by a shop

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I know you didn't want to drive it but what's another 9 miles after 22,000?
This is a valid question. Can you find out what is the labor warranty that the dealer usually offers? I am betting it is even less than what that independent offered you. 2/24K is overly generous if you go by industry standard.
 
Originally Posted By: Vikas
Quote:
I know you didn't want to drive it but what's another 9 miles after 22,000?
This is a valid question. Can you find out what is the labor warranty that the dealer usually offers? I am betting it is even less than what that independent offered you. 2/24K is overly generous if you go by industry standard.


I don't know how to state this any more clearly.

The axle nut was loose. Had it completely fallen of, the wheel would have gone with it. That last nine miles might have been more than it could handle.

What happens if I wreck the car and kill or seriously injure someone after being told that the car was unsafe to drive?

Where does the liability fall? The shop that let me drive away? ...or me? Would my insurance cover that or would they say "you knowingly drove a car with an unsafe defect, you're on your own"?

What's more... could criminal charges have been brought against me? It seems like a stretch, but drunk drivers knowingly get behind the wheel severely impaired and are held accountable when they hurt someone else. Why would this be any different? I'd be getting into a car knowing the same thing as a drunk knows, my risk of wadding up my car is significantly increased, yet I'm choosing to operate it anyway.

If I were to be the victim of this decision (to drive a car with a clear safety defect), and it could be proven that the offender knew what they were doing, I'd want law enforcement to take action. Not being a lawyer, this seems to meet the laymen's definition of negligent homicide, assuming someone died.
 
There is always a tow service. You did what you did, get over it. I'm still scratching my head what exactly do you want form the shop? Did you even call them about the issue? Or do you want to bully them with your negative internet review?

It's been stated many times, mechanics and technicians make mistakes. The situation could've been dangerous but driving in general is statistically the most dangerous activity for most people. So unless you can prove that the bearing nut was installed incorrectly with the intent of it being installed incorrectly, all you have is "could've, should've would've" type scenario.

Call the shop, see what they say and move on. What's the point of all this internet drama?
 
Originally Posted By: Mykl
Originally Posted By: Vikas
Quote:
I know you didn't want to drive it but what's another 9 miles after 22,000?
This is a valid question. Can you find out what is the labor warranty that the dealer usually offers? I am betting it is even less than what that independent offered you. 2/24K is overly generous if you go by industry standard.


I don't know how to state this any more clearly.

The axle nut was loose. Had it completely fallen of, the wheel would have gone with it. That last nine miles might have been more than it could handle.

What happens if I wreck the car and kill or seriously injure someone after being told that the car was unsafe to drive?

Where does the liability fall? The shop that let me drive away? ...or me? Would my insurance cover that or would they say "you knowingly drove a car with an unsafe defect, you're on your own"?

What's more... could criminal charges have been brought against me? It seems like a stretch, but drunk drivers knowingly get behind the wheel severely impaired and are held accountable when they hurt someone else. Why would this be any different? I'd be getting into a car knowing the same thing as a drunk knows, my risk of wadding up my car is significantly increased, yet I'm choosing to operate it anyway.

If I were to be the victim of this decision (to drive a car with a clear safety defect), and it could be proven that the offender knew what they were doing, I'd want law enforcement to take action. Not being a lawyer, this seems to meet the laymen's definition of negligent homicide, assuming someone died.



All this concern but you drove it to the dealership after you noticed the problem in your driveway... If it was really ready to fly off you would have felt uncomfortable driving. I would not be surprised if the dealership oversold the severity of danger to your life to secure the work be done in their shop.
 
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
There is always a tow service. You did what you did, get over it. I'm still scratching my head what exactly do you want form the shop? Did you even call them about the issue? Or do you want to bully them with your negative internet review?

It's been stated many times, mechanics and technicians make mistakes. The situation could've been dangerous but driving in general is statistically the most dangerous activity for most people. So unless you can prove that the bearing nut was installed incorrectly with the intent of it being installed incorrectly, all you have is "could've, should've would've" type scenario.

Call the shop, see what they say and move on. What's the point of all this internet drama?


Get over what?

Have you read anything I've said? In multiple posts I've clearly highlighted what I intend to do and how I intend to do it.

Internet drama? I came to a car forum to ask car enthusiasts how they would handle this themselves. I have thankfully received some extremely valuable advice from people who actually took the time to understand the situation.

The only drama is being caused by you not reading, in one of the many posts I've left, stating that I intend to politely approach the shop and present the situation to them before I actively seek to persuade people to stay away from them.

If they work with me, great. If they don't, I am allowed to be upset about it. I am allowed to be [censored] off that I have been driving my pregnant wife around in a car that could have gotten her and my unborn son killed because the shop I trusted to work on my car couldn't properly fasten an axle nut. If you don't agree with that, then go away. That driving is "statistically dangerous" is not relevant, I accept those risks up front because the benefit is worth it, that is in no way the same as accepting the risk of driving a car with a wheel that could come off the next time you hit a bump in a corner and the few threads the axle nut is still holding onto fail.

Originally Posted By: Gasbuggy
All this concern but you drove it to the dealership after you noticed the problem in your driveway... If it was really ready to fly off you would have felt uncomfortable driving. I would not be surprised if the dealership oversold the severity of danger to your life to secure the work be done in their shop.


So in your mind there is no difference between driving a car with a known safety issue and driving a car that has an issue you don't know about?

How do you know how any specific car drives with these symptoms? Is my word regarding how it drove not good enough for you?

You'll note that I did not notice the actual problem in my garage. What I noticed was slight wheel play indicating a worn wheel bearing. At which point, I drove the car to a shop to get it looked at, because a worn wheel bearing is not an immediate safety hazard. Had I noticed that the axle nut had backed off I would not have driven the car anywhere for any reason, because holy [censored] I'm not trying to kill anyone.
 
Originally Posted By: Mykl
Honest question:

If the axle nut is properly torqued, and you punch in the proper safety notch, what ways could that nut back out on it's own?

Let me assume they did their job perfectly. What could have caused this to happen?

Because if there is a plausible, reasonable explanation, I won't even go to the shop. I'll just accept it as a random failure. The problem is, I can't think of any plausible explanations, but I'm also not an engineer or a professional mechanic.


This was near the top of page 2.

I am very, very happy to walk away from this and chalk it up as a "this kind of stuff just happens..." if anybody can offer a plausible reason why an axle nut, properly installed, would back off on its own.

So far nobody has said anything, further reinforcing the idea that this shop screwed up the install.
 
Mykl:

Definitely return to that shop and let the manager or owner know about what the dealership found, if they have any integrity at all they will compensate you with a cash refund probably a partial one, but something reasonable. If they are a sleazy operation, and many places are they will deny all responsibility and blow you off like the shop I mentioned in my previous post. The [censored] service writer at this shop knew when I walked out that door that I was going to give them a personal and social media black eye, and I've done just that.
 
Originally Posted By: GiveMeAVowel
Mykl:

Definitely return to that shop and let the manager or owner know about what the dealership found, if they have any integrity at all they will compensate you with a cash refund probably a partial one, but something reasonable. If they are a sleazy operation, and many places are they will deny all responsibility and blow you off like the shop I mentioned in my previous post. The [censored] service writer at this shop knew when I walked out that door that I was going to give them a personal and social media black eye, and I've done just that.


Absolutely.

There will be no "angry, aggressive customer" [censored].

"Hi, I know your shop has been in business serving this community for quite a few decades now. You're clearly doing quite well for yourselves with the recent renovations and glowing online reviews. However, I have an issue that I'd like to discuss...."

If they say that they can't help me, I shake the person's hand, politely exit, and do the only thing I can.

There's nothing to be gained by throwing a fit in their lobby. But if I can convince a few people to avoid them, they will have at least lost out on enough customers to make up for what it cost me to repair my car.

On the other side of the coin, if they help me, and take responsibility, they probably just picked up a loyal customer that would be happy to spread the story and direct people to them.
 
Originally Posted By: Mykl


Absolutely.

There will be no "angry, aggressive customer" [censored].

"Hi, I know your shop has been in business serving this community for quite a few decades now. You're clearly doing quite well for yourselves with the recent renovations and glowing online reviews. However, I have an issue that I'd like to discuss...."

If they say that they can't help me, I shake the person's hand, politely exit, and do the only thing I can.

There's nothing to be gained by throwing a fit in their lobby. But if I can convince a few people to avoid them, they will have at least lost out on enough customers to make up for what it cost me to repair my car.

On the other side of the coin, if they help me, and take responsibility, they probably just picked up a loyal customer that would be happy to spread the story and direct people to them.


This is the "right way" to handle it. follow up and let us know the outcome.
 
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Originally Posted By: GiveMeAVowel

This is the "right way" to handle it. follow up and let us know the outcome.


Yeah, I'm going to call my service advisor and see if I can't arrange a five minute chat with the tech that worked on my car. First, I want to be absolutely clear that my impression here is spot on correct. Second, if possible, it'd be great to get a written statement from him, or an updated receipt that accurately states the problem that was found.

I am not an expert. I am not a certified auto mechanic. The shop I approach has every right to be suspicious of me. That I'm an amateur mechanic who has an understanding of what's going on is irrelevant; no credibility. But if I'm presenting the expert opinion of a certified mechanic, that has some weight.

Thanks to the person who sent me the PMs who helped me focus my approach here. I still would have been polite, but I probably would have been less effective at clearly communicating the problem.
 
Originally Posted By: Mykl
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
There is always a tow service. You did what you did, get over it. I'm still scratching my head what exactly do you want form the shop? Did you even call them about the issue? Or do you want to bully them with your negative internet review?

It's been stated many times, mechanics and technicians make mistakes. The situation could've been dangerous but driving in general is statistically the most dangerous activity for most people. So unless you can prove that the bearing nut was installed incorrectly with the intent of it being installed incorrectly, all you have is "could've, should've would've" type scenario.

Call the shop, see what they say and move on. What's the point of all this internet drama?


Get over what?

Have you read anything I've said? In multiple posts I've clearly highlighted what I intend to do and how I intend to do it.

Internet drama? I came to a car forum to ask car enthusiasts how they would handle this themselves. I have thankfully received some extremely valuable advice from people who actually took the time to understand the situation.

The only drama is being caused by you not reading, in one of the many posts I've left, stating that I intend to politely approach the shop and present the situation to them before I actively seek to persuade people to stay away from them.

If they work with me, great. If they don't, I am allowed to be upset about it. I am allowed to be [censored] off that I have been driving my pregnant wife around in a car that could have gotten her and my unborn son killed because the shop I trusted to work on my car couldn't properly fasten an axle nut. If you don't agree with that, then go away. That driving is "statistically dangerous" is not relevant, I accept those risks up front because the benefit is worth it, that is in no way the same as accepting the risk of driving a car with a wheel that could come off the next time you hit a bump in a corner and the few threads the axle nut is still holding onto fail.

Originally Posted By: Gasbuggy
All this concern but you drove it to the dealership after you noticed the problem in your driveway... If it was really ready to fly off you would have felt uncomfortable driving. I would not be surprised if the dealership oversold the severity of danger to your life to secure the work be done in their shop.


So in your mind there is no difference between driving a car with a known safety issue and driving a car that has an issue you don't know about?

How do you know how any specific car drives with these symptoms? Is my word regarding how it drove not good enough for you?

You'll note that I did not notice the actual problem in my garage. What I noticed was slight wheel play indicating a worn wheel bearing. At which point, I drove the car to a shop to get it looked at, because a worn wheel bearing is not an immediate safety hazard. Had I noticed that the axle nut had backed off I would not have driven the car anywhere for any reason, because holy [censored] I'm not trying to kill anyone.



I guess I made the mistake of assuming you knew something about cars/mechanics and had a better understanding of the problem before going to the dealership.
 
Originally Posted By: Mykl
Originally Posted By: Mykl
Honest question:

If the axle nut is properly torqued, and you punch in the proper safety notch, what ways could that nut back out on it's own?

Let me assume they did their job perfectly. What could have caused this to happen?

Because if there is a plausible, reasonable explanation, I won't even go to the shop. I'll just accept it as a random failure. The problem is, I can't think of any plausible explanations, but I'm also not an engineer or a professional mechanic.


This was near the top of page 2.

I am very, very happy to walk away from this and chalk it up as a "this kind of stuff just happens..." if anybody can offer a plausible reason why an axle nut, properly installed, would back off on its own.

So far nobody has said anything, further reinforcing the idea that this shop screwed up the install.



The answer as far as I am concerned is no. Some axle nuts aren't even locking types. The big precipitating factor for a fastener of any kind loosening is movement. When you cinch a pair of bearing races together (most hub bearings are two halves to form a pair) between the shoulder of the drive axle and the nut, there is a lot of solid, immovable steel there... No movement, no loosening. Run them down to 150-220 lbs (depending on make//model) and that's where they stay. My guess is that whomever did the repair spun it on with the impact until it almost touched then meant to come back with the torque wrench to finish it, but forgot.

As far as the rest of the deal, I believe you're not in the right position to be getting worked up. Nothing was in danger of falling off, you didn't take it back to the shop that did the work- and yes, I understand you didn't fully understand what was going on at the time... and you, as far as I'm aware didn't keep old parts for inspection by the shop that worked on the bearing.

Personally if I were the shop owner, I'd be VERY skeptical since it wasn't repaired by me. No doubt you're aware that his warranty doesn't cover other shops labor. Depending on how you addressed the situation, I'd probably want to extend some sort of good will gesture though. Not sure

As for the review- I'd definitely wait until the dust settles. Give them a chance to come up with a resolution that satisfies you. In your review, be factual and honest- no matter what becomes of it. If you approach them with you dilemma and they take care of you and you all hold hands afterwards and sing koombaya then note it. If he says "Sorry, no dice. You didn't bring it back to me, let alone the old parts from the other shop!", then note your discontent AND his side of the story to be fair. Don't go off on some rant about tires falling off and unborn babies dying for god's sake... The reality was that you weren't in any real danger of a wheel falling off. Even if the nut had managed to back the rest of the way off in the nest couple miles (it wouldn't have) then the caliper and bracket would retained the assembly well enough to get to the road side. Most likely one of two things would have happened- 1) bearing got damaged to the point it made bad bearing noise- resolution it gets taken out of service and repaired. 2)The nut would have continued to loosen and the car would have handled very funny. Enough that most any driver would have taken note. In fact, the only person who would have enough skill (negligence) in this scenario to actually get the wheel to fall off would be our very own gearheadtool/malfunctionprone/whatever else, Joseph
 
Ask them to cover the repairs or at least partially. If they don't, get the old parts & throw them into the front door or window & cause $1450 in damage to the shop
 
Originally Posted By: mehullica
Ask them to cover the repairs or at least partially. If they don't, get the old parts & throw them into the front door or window & cause $1450 in damage to the shop



I'm sure the frustration his situation makes him feel like doing just that. The sad part is that just listening to what he has stated in his posts makes me 99% certain that the indy shop botched the job. But I also think because he didn't return the car to them he won't get a red cent out of them, I believe they will deny any errors at all.

I know with my last personal shop experience even when you DO return and only within a week or two and a 100 miles or so, when they clearly were the last shop to work on my car, not only was the shop service writer rude and terse with me for brining the car back, he went on to offer NO good will to repair the damage they did. The SW even ADMITTED that the tech hammered on the wheel hub to get the wheel studs out, but STILL they wouldn't accept ANY responsibility for the results which damaged the wheel bearing! I can tell you I was calm, firm and businesslike the entire time when dealing with this place I went to, but it did me NO good. Of course I made sure to get the word out on the internet and personally about the sleazy way they handled the situation and I know that they already lost 20 times what it would have cost them if they would have repaired their botched workmanship. I hope I cost them 20000 times more.
 
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The part I am not understanding here is that you you feel that this was such a dangerous emergency, but you drive to get your dash fixed somewhere else and get a quote?

The correct thing to do was to call the shop immediately and advise them of your discovery, and have the vehicle towed straight to the shop (which you probably would have been advised to do).

Telling a "the other shop says" story after the fact, and having no existing problem to throw in their face puts you at a disadvantage.

The thing you have to keep in mind is that shops get these kinds of stories all of the time. I've gotten a few of them myself. In every instance, after asking a few questions, the aggrieved parties disappeared off of the face of the Earth upon realizing I wasn't just going to shell out money without any scrutiny. Hearing a horror-story claim with no work to look at is not going to start you off on the right foot.

You've also removed the ability for that shop to resolve the situation in-house. The only option you're presenting them is to pay another shop for repairing something that you never showed them.

The effect of your reviews are going to be diminished as well. First response I would expect is something along the lines of: "Customer claims we caused serious and dangerous problem. Never contacted us about the problem, instead go out and drives "dangerous" car to go have a minor repair performed on dashboard and only comes to us later with receipts from other repair center and asks us to pay for repairs of a problem never brought to our attention."

You need to think about this whole thing a lot harder.
 
Here's what I think happened.

When you reassemble a press in FWD wheel bearing "typically" you have just a round "donut" of a bearing that presses, tightly, into the knuckle from the inside. Then the "spindle", the part with the lug studs, presses in from the outside. The press operator takes it easy jamming them together because he can wreck the brand new bearing if it isn't properly supported from below.

The car's axle has the proper taper to keep the bearing from being ruined, so the mostly-assembled knuckle goes on and they hope to have enough axle stub sticking through to start the huge nut, to pull everything together. The 150 to 200 ft lbs of the huge nut being tightened "should" do it but if the parts are the wrong temperature or something the friction could be too much to let the job do itself correctly. Maybe this could be due to rusty threads on the axle that's being reused, for example.

My camry has a nut that lets someone punch it into a machined slot in the axle to keep it from backing off. It wasn't punched before my clutch job and it isn't punched now. Rust is keeping it from backing off.

I think your shop didn't completely press your bearing in. It found its way closer together, over time. The nut's where it always been, but since it's not against the bearing tightly, it's been accused of being "loose".

But we'll never know. In the old days of RWD cars we used to tighten the front nut then back it off the specified freeplay as a routine maintenance checkup. Naturally bearings wear and this freeplay changed.

Imagine you're a parent and your daughter's off to college. She goes to a tire store and they say the front end's shot and it won't take an alignment and it's actually dangerous. How would the situation be similar to if she just went ahead and used her "emergency credit card" to do all the needed work, then, later, mama bear calls long-distance to ream them out?
 
Somebody who considers replacing the front wheel bearing by himself should be in a position to immediately ascertain the validity of typical fear-mongering "too dangerous to drive from the shop".

These tactics are routinely used against somebody who can barely fill the gas tank.
 
Not saying what the OP should or shouldn't do, but technicians to make mistakes, they are human. One of the front end guys at my work who is an amazing tech with 30+ years turning wrenches came in a couple days ago after doing a bearing like the OPs and said "order me another one, I crushed the new one." This was on a newer Focus that had the clutch replaced and the threads on the axle came off with the nut when this tech undid the nut.
 
Originally Posted By: eljefino
Here's what I think happened.

When you reassemble a press in FWD wheel bearing "typically" you have just a round "donut" of a bearing that presses, tightly, into the knuckle from the inside. Then the "spindle", the part with the lug studs, presses in from the outside. The press operator takes it easy jamming them together because he can wreck the brand new bearing if it isn't properly supported from below.

The car's axle has the proper taper to keep the bearing from being ruined, so the mostly-assembled knuckle goes on and they hope to have enough axle stub sticking through to start the huge nut, to pull everything together. The 150 to 200 ft lbs of the huge nut being tightened "should" do it but if the parts are the wrong temperature or something the friction could be too much to let the job do itself correctly. Maybe this could be due to rusty threads on the axle that's being reused, for example.

My camry has a nut that lets someone punch it into a machined slot in the axle to keep it from backing off. It wasn't punched before my clutch job and it isn't punched now. Rust is keeping it from backing off.

I think your shop didn't completely press your bearing in. It found its way closer together, over time. The nut's where it always been, but since it's not against the bearing tightly, it's been accused of being "loose".

But we'll never know. In the old days of RWD cars we used to tighten the front nut then back it off the specified freeplay as a routine maintenance checkup. Naturally bearings wear and this freeplay changed.

Imagine you're a parent and your daughter's off to college. She goes to a tire store and they say the front end's shot and it won't take an alignment and it's actually dangerous. How would the situation be similar to if she just went ahead and used her "emergency credit card" to do all the needed work, then, later, mama bear calls long-distance to ream them out?


I was thinking the same thing as I read through all of the posts.

The OP seems like he has a reasonable plan and has taken the good advice given to heart, which is good. My only criticism, OP, is that, while you may not intend to (nor have you conveyed any intent to us here) dramatically demand things from the previous shop, you have said you intend to add a little flair to your review. You were recommended to simply state the facts, but you seem set on adding more than needed to any negative online reviews.

You're 100% entitled to post whatever kind of review you want; however, I agree with a few others who have posted that you may be over-stating the risk of the things you're claiming. My wife made it onto the highway before experiencing a major death wobble that she needed to pull over for. Nothing had been done to her car in months, so it must have been some punk kid(s) who loosened all of her lug nuts to the point of moving around and making her think the wheel was going to fall off.

My point, is that it took this long for either the bearing to press further on and create a gap between all mating surfaces and the axle nut, or for the axle nut to back off, so I feel (without knowing for sure, obviously) that the vibration you felt (that you only made the connection with AFTER you were told the problem, right) would have slowly gotten worse, if at all, until it was noticeable enough to have checked out.

That fact that you keep stating that your wife and unborn child could have died is what people are taking issue with, not your right to be frustrated at the situation, which we all fully understand.
 
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