How Many Here Are Turned Off By Electric Vehicles ?

[Job]

My only concern is charging stations. I make several trips out of state every year and charging stations aren't very common down here in the Southeast that I've noticed. Plus, when I'm driving, I don't like to stop unless I absolutely have to. I will even minimize my liquid intake so I don't have to stop to use the bathroom as much. Therefore, the thought of having to hang around for 45+ minutes waiting for the car to fully charge is really off-putting as it would likely kill my motivation to keep driving. I can fill up gas in just a few minutes and get back on the road.

As electric vehicles become more common and technology advances to allow super fast charging and more miles between charges, I'll likely come around to it.

45 minutes of waiting is beginner EV charging waiting in the Level 2 world.

 

[UncleDave]

It was reported in the news that the driver had self driving engaged. In fact, another Tesla hit a stopped police car here today, complete with flashing lights.

Did the blind spot cause Biff to wreck the car ?

The driver agreed to be in control of the car when he used the software, the driver failed.

Did the chip and soda cause obesity or the person consuming them?

Did the gun magically float through the air and kill some one or did a person do it?

 

[JeffKeryk]

It's not really an, "all or nothing attitude". It's the fact they should be able to directly compete with gas powered vehicles, and they don't. Not even closely. Do they provide somewhat limited use for some people? Yes. But in a head to head comparison against IC vehicles, they're sorely lacking in too many areas.... And most of them cost more.

And the EV "naysayers", are not the one's with the, "all or nothing" attitude. It's the governments who are trying to force these things down everyone's throat by giving dates, and mandates attached to them.

Your statement depends on the use case. How many people drive over 200 miles per day non-stop? I don't know any.
Something like 90% of Americans are fine with a full charge on a daily use basis. That's not "limited use for some people"

ICE cars spend an infinitly more time fueling than I do. I never sit at a charging station.
My Model needs no oil changes, No transmission services. Brake components generally last 100K miles. Spark plugs, air filter? Nope.
Virtually no maintenance needed means no service downtime.
I never go to a gas station. My car has a full tank just from sitting in the garage plugged in.
My fueling costs are minimal as compared to my ICE vehicles. In fact, charging via our solar panels gets me to the solar project break even point faster; ultimately I get more value outta the solar project.
Reliability? Do you hear of a Model 3 breaking down?

This is my use case. If I lived in an apartment, I probably would not own a Model 3. But I might want one...

Then there is the intangibles... Our Model 3 is a flat out blast to drive with its flat handling, incredible sound system, voice commands, acceleration and so much more. Even the seats are incedible...

That's my experience. Does it mean I don't love our GS350 F Sport? Of course not. They are both great cars. One is a solid design and quality; the other is the future.

 

[JeffKeryk]

It was reported in the news that the driver had self driving engaged.

Wrong. The driver said AP was engaged. That's my point.
So many times, the reality does not match the initial statements.

 

[FZ1]

I prefer a ice/electric hybrid as the next step re auto emissions. Flexible and practical with no stress on our electric grid. EX. Toyota Camry Hybrid battery is recharged by braking not by plugging in.

 

[xgmad]

alternative fuels like 100 percent ethanol would be nice.

 

[OVERKILL]

alternative fuels like 100 percent ethanol would be nice.

Burning food isn't that great for the environment either, if that's the goal.

 

[xgmad]

Burning food isn't that great for the environment either, if that's the goal.

no not burning food, but maybe one day gasoline may be replaced with some other type of fuel.

 

[Brons2]

I'm sick of hearing opinions from people who have never even driven one, let alone owned one

Exactly this. The anti-EV lobby is pretty powerful.

15 pages in about 24 hours, lot of opinions out there. But you know what opinions are like, yeah, and everyone's got one.

 

[Brons2]

alternative fuels like 100 percent ethanol would be nice.

This is only a good idea if cars are tuned to run it. Most vehicles are optimized for unleaded. You need higher static compression to really take advantage of ethanol's higher thermal efficiency, but then you'd have to run premium anytime you could not get ethanol.

 

[xgmad]

This is only a good idea if cars are tuned to run it. Most vehicles are optimized for unleaded. You need higher static compression to really take advantage of ethanol's higher thermal efficiency, but then you'd have to run premium anytime you could not get ethanol.

yep

 

[PandaBear]

Ok so you haven't actually tested 120v 240.

Third party testing has shown that 120V charging is less efficient even at the same power output by as much as 5-10%

Even in a scenario where the overall power may be equal or close to equal.

120 is less efficient because the AC-DC conversion needs to step up the voltage further and spend more energy removing/cleaning the ripple from the waveform.

Ill try to dig up the older post with links to the testing.

If that 5-10% is that big of a deal, and it is the same deal for the rest of your household, you would have the entire US grid switch to 240V already, instead of just AC, range, laundry dryer, and water heater.

Seriously, human tends to put up with a lot of things until they can't, and that threshold is more than 5-10%.

 

[PandaBear]

Vehicles are not designed to last 30 yrs doesn't mean that they can't but that's not a design goal by automakers.

In any case over 12-15 million cars are crushed every year which is a little under total new sales every year. This doesn't include vehicles shipped out of the country or abandoned sitting on someones property.

People used to trash Prius for the same thing, that the car is not going to last 12 years and people will abandon good cars. Well guess what, they all agree Prius in good condition is worth saving and replace the battery pack.

 

[PandaBear]

But what happens to the battery at year 8 when it needs replacement? And does the car simply go to an early grave due to depreciation at that point? Old obsolete technology to expensive to fix? If the answers are not favorable for these important questions, then the ICE vehicle that is fixable and cost efficient is the clear lifecycle winner and the clear environmental winner, since ICE vehicles are designed to run 300k miles and last 30 years or more.

1) It is likely sold to lower end customers, grandma, teenager, etc as a cheap car. Nissan Leaf at old age can be had for $5k with only 60% of the battery left. They don't crush them. In the worst case they will be sold to homeless and they will charge once a day and live off it, instead of driving a CrownVic and gas it up once a week.

2) There will be refurb pack that will replace only a few cells here and there for early failure of a couple bad cells. There are people opening it up, replace a fraction of the cells, swap them around, put them back. It won't last like new cell but if the expected life is 20 years 200k and yours die at 15 years 150k, it may last another 5 years 50k so you can offload it to the grandma or teenager instead of send it to the crusher

3) People may decide to build new pack with new tech for a reasonable cost, like Prius do. They may have shorter than original range to keep cost down but they will be optimized to what people are willing to pay and want.

4) They will be shipped to 3rd world and do 1-3 there, because labor is cheap and gas is not.

We have seen it with Prius, the sky didn't fall.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Question for the masses: Which drivetrain will last longer?
The bullet proof one in our 2013 GS350 F Sport or the electric motor in the 2018 Model 3 Mid Range?

Hint: One is 300K, the other just might be a million...

 

[PandaBear]

Laws require CCs. And the platinum used is a small amount. And it's not toxic. And they last indefinitely.

This is why few ask.

1) Platinum in a cat does NOT last indefinitely, and recycling is not 100% efficient, so you do need to keep mining them to supply the world.
2) People used to complain about cat restricting the engine and wasting power, making tuning impossible, etc etc. It lives on for 40 years and now people would complain if you go test pipe and report you on it.

 

[BrianF]

I'm not opposed to electric. They have their place, the engineering is improving. Its the politics that sours me on them.

 

[PandaBear]

Question for the masses: Which drivetrain will last longer?
The bullet proof one in our 2013 GS350 F Sport or the electric motor in the 2018 Model 3 Mid Range?

Hint: One is 300K, the other just might be a million...

Everything can last forever if you throw enough time and money at it. The correct question would be which vehicle have a lower cost of owership over 300K, including battery, car, engine, transmission, fuel, electricity, tire, etc.

My opinion is the coil winding of an electric motor don't wear out, the bearing and more likely the power electronics do (if you go cheap on it).

To be fair a lot of people never check how much tires for exotic model and size cost, and then just toss 1k every 6 years on their tires. Then they just argue on the internet how something is 5c more per mile to drive than another or how they are 2% less efficient than the other......

 

[Job]

If that 5-10% is that big of a deal, and it is the same deal for the rest of your household, you would have the entire US grid switch to 240V already, instead of just AC, range, laundry dryer, and water heater.

Seriously, human tends to put up with a lot of things until they can't, and that threshold is more than 5-10%.

Good points. I think on board chargers, like TV sets, have different efficiencies by brand. As far as the supply, 120 is the same as 240, since the 240 comes from combining two 120’s. I think, It is just talking instead of doing chores that are being left undone.

 

[UncleDave]

If that 5-10% is that big of a deal, and it is the same deal for the rest of your household, you would have the entire US grid switch to 240V already, instead of just AC, range, laundry dryer, and water heater.

Seriously, human tends to put up with a lot of things until they can't, and that threshold is more than 5-10%.

The thing is that 5-10% really only becomes meaningful over the life of the car as it eats into a total ROI and of course coming up with a true MPGE figure.

How big a deal is it- depends on how you look at it.

To me I have a 240V 50 amp plug, so for me it would be a choice, many only have a 110V option.

120-240 - plusses and minuses to each. Im Ok with our mixed delivery system.