How hot is too hot for motor oil

[930.engineering]

Thank you.
True- but the original question was- "how hot is too hot for oil"?

Willbur, the original question has been answered a couple of times, not to say this horse has been beaten to death.

That said, the OP seems to be on a proper way if he's using a M1 ESP 5W-30 and appropriate coolant mix (e.g. 35:65).

While Ravenol REP, Redline and Amsoil SS use high content PAO + POE base oils and are more expensive, are they actually so much better than M1 ESP which has super-low Noack and just as flashpoint?

 

[edyvw]

Willbur, the original question has been answered a couple of times, not to say this horse has been beaten to death.

That said, the OP seems to be on a proper way if he's using a M1 ESP 5W-30 and appropriate coolant mix (e.g. 35:65).

While Ravenol REP, Redline and Amsoil SS use high content PAO + POE base oils and are more expensive, are they actually so much better than M1 ESP which has super-low Noack and just as flashpoint?

For this application? No.

 

[Davejam]

By the way this thread had me going down the rabit hole of looking at coolant additives (for which there is a seperate sub-forum)...

It seems to me that there could be a legitimate case for coolant additives, IE: the use of surface tension modification.
However, i'm not convinced that any that are on the market are actually compatible with all types of coolant.
I see that some have 2-EHA, some have silanes, etc that would not be compatible accross the board.
And they all seem to contain corrosion inhibitors, which may or may not be compatible with what's in the existing coolant.

So, to reiterate it seems more water is one part of the solution.
A lot of recommendations I came accross did not recommend going lower than 15-20% coolant as that could cause certain issues.
So, although I used 90/10 as an example, it seems more reasonable to try to maintain 20-25%, and that would still be a significant improvement.

 

[930.engineering]

Dave, don't overthink things. Of course 75/25 and I'm quite certain even 65/35 will make a difference. Only destilled water and coolant concentrate are needed, nothing else.

For this application? No.

You'll know my question was purely rhetoric.

 

[edyvw]

Dave, don't overthink things. Of course 75/25 and I'm quite certain even 65/35 will make a difference. Only destilled water and coolant concentrate are needed, nothing else.




You'll know my question was purely rhetoric.

Yeah.
I did a track on Friday. 102f degrees at 5,000ft. No issues. Oil cooler, Castrol 0W40, and 20/80% coolant-water mix. The highest oil temperature I have seen was 127c, coolant 94c.

 

[Davejam]

Yeah.
I did a track on Friday. 102f degrees at 5,000ft. No issues. Oil cooler, Castrol 0W40, and 20/80% coolant-water mix. The highest oil temperature I have seen was 127c, coolant 94c.

I'm not totally following if in your case this was an improvement, or basically where you've been running all along.
Either way, that's about as best as you could do given the circumstances, so good work.

 

[edyvw]

I'm not totally following if in your case this was an improvement, or basically where you've been running all along.
Either way, that's about as best as you could do given the circumstances, so good work.

N52 in E90 was not coming with any type of oil cooler on the US market. SO last year I could easily get oil to 143c when limp mode would kick in. ALtitude is the problem, not so much ambient temperature. But when you combine both, it is killer.
So, I retrofitted the oil cooler from 335. It si basically overkill now, which is what I wanted. Pretty much I can run all day long on track and keeps oil in check. Now the problem are brakes

 

[NitroM3]

Ok so I am going to get into trouble....with this response I can see it coming. LOL

USA consumers ONLY not sure about the rest of the world? Unless an auto maker specifically uses the exact worded "REQUIRED" then you can use any choice of motor oil you want and the warranty can not be denied because of the choice of motors oil. I am referring only to the viscosity. Most auto manufactures these day at least like to see us all using synthetic oil. But most still Don't require it in exact wording.
We have what is called here in US of A The Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act.

NEXT.... WHY NO ADDED OIL COOLER??

I recomend that if you are using a vehicle that is still under warranty in competition to purchase a rebuilt (tested for health) ECU have it flashed for the current manufactures updates (maybe even through a dealership) and use it when racing? Then swap out and return the OEM original ECU. The ECU at least most I have calibrated does not have a cell for counting removing it or unplugging it from the harness. And even some us mount the ECU upside down on some vehicles for performance driving , but that's for another thread and subject material

Ok and lastly, anyone that is using their vehicle in competition and that said vehicle has available aftermarket full access ECU/EFI Calibration re-mapping charts and scales many of those calibration program can gain access to the counters and can shut them off. I don't know specifically on VW but BMW which has one of the most complex ECU ever designed their is a full access program that allows for any and all changes.

 

[edyvw]

Ok so I am going to get into trouble....with this response I can see it coming. LOL

USA consumers ONLY not sure about the rest of the world? Unless an auto maker specifically uses the exact worded "REQUIRED" then you can use any choice of motor oil you want and the warranty can not be denied because of the choice of motors oil. I am referring only to the viscosity. Most auto manufactures these day at least like to see us all using synthetic oil. But most still Don't require it in exact wording.
We have what is called here in US of A The Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act.

NEXT.... WHY NO ADDED OIL COOLER??

I recomend that if you are using a vehicle that is still under warranty in competition to purchase a rebuilt (tested for health) ECU have it flashed for the current manufactures updates (maybe even through a dealership) and use it when racing? Then swap out and return the OEM original ECU. The ECU at least most I have calibrated does not have a cell for counting removing it or unplugging it from the harness. And even some us mount the ECU upside down on some vehicles for performance driving , but that's for another thread and subject material

Ok and lastly, anyone that is using their vehicle in competition and that said vehicle has available aftermarket full access ECU/EFI Calibration re-mapping charts and scales many of those calibration program can gain access to the counters and can shut them off. I don't know specifically on VW but BMW which has one of the most complex ECU ever designed their is a full access program that allows for any and all changes.

He already stated that adding oil cooler would bump him to a different category.
Also, his runs are short. They are all below 3min. Oil cooler would not solve any issues IMO here. Coolant mix is more important for immediate results. If he was tracking vehicle and doing long runs, than yeah, oil cooler is first order of business.

 

[NitroM3]

Most sanctioned rules stipulate the use of some parts like aftermarket 'coolers" for a class you are competing in but none I am aware of state the hose length of factory coolers?

Changing the % of water to coolant on short runs has little to no effect overall because of thermal dynamic's of a fluid and how long to control the temperature's of the engine which is not the same as the temperature in the radiator. Really if the run is that short you are better off to use 100% water, and maybe a water wetter like RED LINE water wetter?

 

[TiGeo]

Ok so I am going to get into trouble....with this response I can see it coming. LOL

USA consumers ONLY not sure about the rest of the world? Unless an auto maker specifically uses the exact worded "REQUIRED" then you can use any choice of motor oil you want and the warranty can not be denied because of the choice of motors oil. I am referring only to the viscosity. Most auto manufactures these day at least like to see us all using synthetic oil. But most still Don't require it in exact wording.
We have what is called here in US of A The Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act.

NEXT.... WHY NO ADDED OIL COOLER??

I recomend that if you are using a vehicle that is still under warranty in competition to purchase a rebuilt (tested for health) ECU have it flashed for the current manufactures updates (maybe even through a dealership) and use it when racing? Then swap out and return the OEM original ECU. The ECU at least most I have calibrated does not have a cell for counting removing it or unplugging it from the harness. And even some us mount the ECU upside down on some vehicles for performance driving , but that's for another thread and subject material

Ok and lastly, anyone that is using their vehicle in competition and that said vehicle has available aftermarket full access ECU/EFI Calibration re-mapping charts and scales many of those calibration program can gain access to the counters and can shut them off. I don't know specifically on VW but BMW which has one of the most complex ECU ever designed their is a full access program that allows for any and all changes.

Mag-moss is used so many times in warranty discussions when it has nothing to do with the discussion. Bottom line: Mag-moss's intent w/r to auto warranties was that manufacturers can't require you to use their parts/service else deny the warranty. This means you can use an oil or parts that meet their requirements from third-party vendors and preserve your warranty. If VW says 508 that means 508 but it can be any brand 508. This doesn't mean you can use a 502 regardless of brand. 508 is v. simple - it's only offered in 0W20. If you want to use a 502 5W30 or 5W40 as long as they are both 502 then yes, your comment is correct. VW does have a flash counter on the ECU (I have one and can see how many times I've tuned/flashed it) and if you have it in for service that requires a scan that can look at this, they will see that you have been flashed and your VIN will be denoted with the code "TD1" within the VAG mothership system - even if you flash it back to stock prior. IF you are asking for warranty work on a part that *could* be considered impacted by the flash tune, then VW *may* deny the warranty coverage on that particular claim. Your warranty is never "voided" however.

 

[NitroM3]

Thank you for the response.... my operative wording was "REQUIRED"> I have been used a few times to give support and testimony on a few court cases regarding an auto manufactures warranty. During these cases it was always up to the auto manufacture to show proof that using something other then factory available service procedures or parts caused the issue at hand ...as long as the word REQUIRED was not violated so to say. Most often at least my involvement the auto manufacture representative decided to use arbitration and settled no contest. 2 of these cases had to due directly with oil chosen to use by the owner of the vehicle.

 

[Davejam]

Most sanctioned rules stipulate the use of some parts like aftermarket 'coolers" for a class you are competing in but none I am aware of state the hose length of factory coolers?

Changing the % of water to coolant on short runs has little to no effect overall because of thermal dynamic's of a fluid and how long to control the temperature's of the engine which is not the same as the temperature in the radiator. Really if the run is that short you are better off to use 100% water, and maybe a water wetter like RED LINE water wetter?

Why would hose length matter? Rubber is a very poor conductor of heat.

You suggest channging the % of water doesn't matter, then going 100% would...? You realize that is contradictory right? Also don't use water wetter.
Higher concentration of water will help in all over-temperature situations...long or short run.

 

[kschachn]

Thank you for the response.... my operative wording was "REQUIRED"> I have been used a few times to give support and testimony on a few court cases regarding an auto manufactures warranty. During these cases it was always up to the auto manufacture to show proof that using something other then factory available service procedures or parts caused the issue at hand ...as long as the word REQUIRED was not violated so to say. Most often at least my involvement the auto manufacture representative decided to use arbitration and settled no contest. 2 of these cases had to due directly with oil chosen to use by the owner of the vehicle.

So a question, are you new here or is this just a new name for you and you were around before? Your posting style and other things seem very familiar.

 

[NitroM3]

If you built competition vehicles with events restricted to regulations of modifying area's of the vehicle you would understand both of my comments. Let me help a little more hose or coolant LINES and all the specifications. wink wink! The wink is for those out there that know where I was going with the hose length. As for coolant comment, it is not contradictorily please re-read again all I said. Btw it not concentration of water but percentage.
And I am not sure why you made a blanket a statemen to not use water wetter? Your experience using it, didn't work out for you?

I am sorry not trying to create an argument, but when I am questioned about my response and need to qualify it better I do try to answer, most of the time!

 

[edyvw]

Most sanctioned rules stipulate the use of some parts like aftermarket 'coolers" for a class you are competing in but none I am aware of state the hose length of factory coolers?

Changing the % of water to coolant on short runs has little to no effect overall because of thermal dynamic's of a fluid and how long to control the temperature's of the engine which is not the same as the temperature in the radiator. Really if the run is that short you are better off to use 100% water, and maybe a water wetter like RED LINE water wetter?

He already has a fluid/fluid heat exchanger.
I am not aware of VW radiator-type oil cooler on GTI from factory.

 

[BMW Dom]

Mag-moss is used so many times in warranty discussions when it has nothing to do with the discussion. Bottom line: Mag-moss's intent w/r to auto warranties was that manufacturers can't require you to use their parts/service else deny the warranty. This means you can use an oil or parts that meet their requirements from third-party vendors and preserve your warranty. If VW says 508 that means 508 but it can be any brand 508. This doesn't mean you can use a 502 regardless of brand. 508 is v. simple - it's only offered in 0W20. If you want to use a 502 5W30 or 5W40 as long as they are both 502 then yes, your comment is correct. VW does have a flash counter on the ECU (I have one and can see how many times I've tuned/flashed it) and if you have it in for service that requires a scan that can look at this, they will see that you have been flashed and your VIN will be denoted with the code "TD1" within the VAG mothership system - even if you flash it back to stock prior. IF you are asking for warranty work on a part that *could* be considered impacted by the flash tune, then VW *may* deny the warranty coverage on that particular claim. Your warranty is never "voided" however.

Is this also true even if a fluid like Maxlife ATF says it is compatible, that it won't void your warrenty. That is what the Valvoline site says, but of course they want you to buy their fluid (why wouldn't they?)

 

[NitroM3]

kschachn​

I am brand new to this forum. I found this by chance while researching subject material for another forum. I belong to dozens of forums with a wide range of interest and also at least 2 forums a product line of parts I support for technical Q&A.

Is there something wrong with my responses?

 

[NitroM3]

mrlawnguy​

I dont have all the answers to possible scenarios that may come up regarding any warranty claim. Sorry.

edyvw​

My responses were not direct at any specific vehicle and what their build sheet had from the factory. There are ways to always sorta go around modifying some thing that can still work to improve and not necessarily violate a rule for class racing. Call it a "soft cheat" .

 

[kschachn]

kschachn​

I am brand new to this forum. I found this by chance while researching subject material for another forum. I belong to dozens of forums with a wide range of interest and also at least 2 forums a product line of parts I support for technical Q&A.

Is there something wrong with my responses?

No not at all. Why would you ask that? I said they were familiar, not a problem.