edyvw
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I want @ChristianReske to answer, bcs. I seriously want to know this: 5W, high speed pistons.
High quality 5W40 for BMW
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I’m pretty convinced on M1 after reading this
https://marqued.com/editorial/7bDFV...ived-678-000-miles-of-adventure-and-adversity
https://marqued.com/editorial/7bDFV...ived-678-000-miles-of-adventure-and-adversity
Schadenfreude!
See the famous painting "returning to the monastery" by Eduardo Zamacois Y Zabala 1868.
A picture is worth a thousand words.
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And how is it that the document shows MB 229.3 and 229.5 approval? Do they do things differently for different manufacturers? Has Shell actually said that they have approvals but choose not to state such?
edyvw
$50 site donor 2025
Actually, they do have approval. But, it is SOPUS; you never know what they will mess up on bottles, pds, msds etc.
We discussed that numerous times.
Interesting read!
- I would not use Dieseloil in Gasoline engiens, as i would not use GL5 SAE 140 in a Manual Transmission. Some oils are tailored to their Purpose.
- Oh yes, i did not know the difference of the US Spec M3 vs. the German Spec M3. It never came to my mind that BMW sell this car with different engines for different countrys.
- Yes, there are 0w-oils for snowmobiles, wich ar unknown here. Still, no 0w- oils on Street motorcycles. Why?
- Why did the manufacturer of my car, and i could say it´s a company wich have the most expirience with high reving engiens, specs a 10w-30 oil for it? Shearstabele? More robust oil Film? Could it be?
- The school if thinking is, that a 10w- offers a thicker base oil wich have a little edge in Protecetion (Thicker oil film) over a 5w- or a 0w- oil at highe reving, demanding engines when you race them. Less VI Improvers, in the best case non at all, more shearstable. There are reports that 10w- or 15w- oils can help to lower oil consumption, looks there is some truth in this.
- Yes, i know, that many racing teams use 0w- oils. But i never read a scientific article, white paper or what ever you call it about the benefit of a 0w- over a 10w- oil in a racing engine or a very high reving Street engine. A Sponsor sticker on a race car dont connvince and dont educate me in a scientific way. Any links, something to read?
So, i am willing to learn. That´s why i am here. Teach me.
- I would not use Dieseloil in Gasoline engiens, as i would not use GL5 SAE 140 in a Manual Transmission. Some oils are tailored to their Purpose.
- Oh yes, i did not know the difference of the US Spec M3 vs. the German Spec M3. It never came to my mind that BMW sell this car with different engines for different countrys.
- Yes, there are 0w-oils for snowmobiles, wich ar unknown here. Still, no 0w- oils on Street motorcycles. Why?
- Why did the manufacturer of my car, and i could say it´s a company wich have the most expirience with high reving engiens, specs a 10w-30 oil for it? Shearstabele? More robust oil Film? Could it be?
- The school if thinking is, that a 10w- offers a thicker base oil wich have a little edge in Protecetion (Thicker oil film) over a 5w- or a 0w- oil at highe reving, demanding engines when you race them. Less VI Improvers, in the best case non at all, more shearstable. There are reports that 10w- or 15w- oils can help to lower oil consumption, looks there is some truth in this.
- Yes, i know, that many racing teams use 0w- oils. But i never read a scientific article, white paper or what ever you call it about the benefit of a 0w- over a 10w- oil in a racing engine or a very high reving Street engine. A Sponsor sticker on a race car dont connvince and dont educate me in a scientific way. Any links, something to read?
So, i am willing to learn. That´s why i am here. Teach me.
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Illegitimi non carborundum
For my car, the manufacterer specs a 10w-30 year round. 5w-40 only when it really get´s cold. Yes, it makes no sense, but that is Printed in the manual.
The engine revs very high and has a insane Piston speed. The engine is known for running hot, with high oil temps. I am totally out of warranty. Beside the old API, there are no specs wich the manufacturere calls for.
I opted for the ROWE racing oil in 10w-40 for several reasons:
The Rowe 10w-40 is just barely a -40 oil. It has a KV 100 of 12.8. If this oil becomes thinner in use, it is a perfect, stable 10w-30.
It has a VI of 153 , i assume that it contains no VI at all. Can this be bad in a such a engine?
it is PAO+ Ester. Could this be bad in a engine wich is known for running hot?
As a racing oil, it has robust add pack, but a modern one. It dont kill a catalyst over time with to much zinc.
So, is my oil choice completly stupid? Will my engine explode? I dont think so.
Do i have any benfit from switching to a 0w- or 5w- oil in this car? I only use it as a weekend toy and on lonesome country roads. The engien only get started when the ambient temp is over 10°c / 50°F. It is a summer toy.
Really, ROWE has this racing oil also in 0w- and 5w- . If i have a benwfit, i will use one of these next time. But i want to know some facts.
My winter beater runs on 5w- or 0w- over the shelf oil from my local parts shop, of course. In this car wich is used in winter and is often short tripped, 0w- makes perfect sense to me.
The engine revs very high and has a insane Piston speed. The engine is known for running hot, with high oil temps. I am totally out of warranty. Beside the old API, there are no specs wich the manufacturere calls for.
I opted for the ROWE racing oil in 10w-40 for several reasons:
The Rowe 10w-40 is just barely a -40 oil. It has a KV 100 of 12.8. If this oil becomes thinner in use, it is a perfect, stable 10w-30.
It has a VI of 153 , i assume that it contains no VI at all. Can this be bad in a such a engine?
it is PAO+ Ester. Could this be bad in a engine wich is known for running hot?
As a racing oil, it has robust add pack, but a modern one. It dont kill a catalyst over time with to much zinc.
So, is my oil choice completly stupid? Will my engine explode? I dont think so.
Do i have any benfit from switching to a 0w- or 5w- oil in this car? I only use it as a weekend toy and on lonesome country roads. The engien only get started when the ambient temp is over 10°c / 50°F. It is a summer toy.
Really, ROWE has this racing oil also in 0w- and 5w- . If i have a benwfit, i will use one of these next time. But i want to know some facts.
My winter beater runs on 5w- or 0w- over the shelf oil from my local parts shop, of course. In this car wich is used in winter and is often short tripped, 0w- makes perfect sense to me.
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And:
Sorry to "sfbmw" for derailing your thread!
I was at the wrong assumption that you car has this high reving engine, like the ones here.
Therfore, i think you are good to go with the Mobil 1.
Sorry to "sfbmw" for derailing your thread!
I was at the wrong assumption that you car has this high reving engine, like the ones here.
Therfore, i think you are good to go with the Mobil 1.
Search; Relationship between (piston ring pack) speed and shear rate. See what you come up with.
Elasto-hydrodynamic lubrication and shear rates used to be discussed on this site. Not so much now.
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OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Not really the same thing. Many diesel oils are dual rated for both gas and diesel applications. Formulation-wise, they are quite similar with HDEO's often just having higher levels of AW additives.
Note I also said ATV's. My V-twin makes peak power at 7,500RPM.
Snowmobile engines are just like bike engines. The Rotax 850 twin makes 165HP at 8,000RPM.
Yamaha also makes a 0W-40:
https://yamaha-motor.com/p/yamalube-0w-40-full-synthetic-with-ester-for-snowmobiles-32-oz
For their snowmobiles, which also feature high winding 4-stroke engines.
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest the reason they don't explicitly recommend these oils for motorcycles but do for other vehicles with the same or similar engines is the fact that motorcycles aren't driven in temperatures where 0W-xx has value, while by definition, snowmobiles are!
The same goes for ATV's, which are typically used year-round.And in terms of operating environment, ATV's have to be one of the worst. You can be going very slow, at elevated RPM, under high load with mud blocking your rad in 30C+ heat.
Honda? They spec'd both 10W-30 conventional and 5W-40 synthetic for the S2000. They also tend to be a marque that has historically gone with the "API minimum" specs for oil performance, quite unlike the German marques who tend to have their own certifications and approvals.
But that's not universally true. Having a less demanding Winter rating can also mean the use of cheaper base oils with poorer performance characteristics because you can get away with it with a narrower spread.
This 10W-30 HDEO blending example has a higher Noack than Euro 0W-40's and is dominated by a 5cSt base oil:
That's a base oil viscosity of 5.59cSt.
This 10W-40 A3/B4 lube is the same:
Base oil viscosity of 5.68cSt
This 0W-40:
Base oil viscosity is 5.02cSt, the 0W-30 is 5.22.
So, roughly 0.5cSt; 1/2 a centistroke but you are using Group II+ instead of PAO. What are the implications of that? Well:
- The 5cSt Group II+ has a 210C flashpoint and 13.5% Noack
- SpectraSyn 4 is 220C and - SpectraSyn 6 is 246C and
Which is why the 0W-40 has a lower Noack than the 10W-30 and 10W-40. In application, M1 0W-40 is 8.8% Noack, even lower.
I mean, they wouldn't use it if it didn't work
Lots of 24hr teams use it and nobody is going to use a product that's going to cause them to perform worse than others. Everybody wants to win.
...so the TCR teams using Liquimoly MoS2....I mean, they wouldn't use it if it didn't work
Yes, nobody racing is going to choose to use a product that makes them less competitive but they will run the products that sponsor their teams whether or not it provides any gain in performance vs. other products/sponsors.
flame suit on/in before lock/in before end of world
Where do you get this "Base oil is xxxx cst " numbers? Their are not listed in any tables.
I was "informed" (In search for a better word..) that the "MRV cp (at xx C°) ASTM 4684" test tells you how robust (thin or thick) the base oil is.
I know that most 10w- PCO oils on the market are made from cheaper base oils. But there are a few out there wich are made from high quality base oil.
I was "informed" (In search for a better word..) that the "MRV cp (at xx C°) ASTM 4684" test tells you how robust (thin or thick) the base oil is.
I know that most 10w- PCO oils on the market are made from cheaper base oils. But there are a few out there wich are made from high quality base oil.
Definitely shows the importance of engine design as well. A Mezger engine like that could last if well maintained, but if it was a 996 C4S it would have died long ago even if run on unicorn tears.
I have a 2014 Passat with the 1.8 Liter turbo engine. Over the years I have used whatever 0-40 with the VW502.00 approval was cheapest. They all worked fine. I did notice the burn rate with Pennzoil version is better. Additionally, I never fill it completely, only to halfway between full and add lines. It burns off the first half quart pretty quickly.
Interesting. I had to look up AP/E CORE and it's Group 1 base oil.Not really the same thing. Many diesel oils are dual rated for both gas and diesel applications. Formulation-wise, they are quite similar with HDEO's often just having higher levels of AW additives.
Note I also said ATV's. My V-twin makes peak power at 7,500RPM.
Snowmobile engines are just like bike engines. The Rotax 850 twin makes 165HP at 8,000RPM.
Yamaha also makes a 0W-40:
https://yamaha-motor.com/p/yamalube-0w-40-full-synthetic-with-ester-for-snowmobiles-32-oz
For their snowmobiles, which also feature high winding 4-stroke engines.
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest the reason they don't explicitly recommend these oils for motorcycles but do for other vehicles with the same or similar engines is the fact that motorcycles aren't driven in temperatures where 0W-xx has value, while by definition, snowmobiles are!
And in terms of operating environment, ATV's have to be one of the worst. You can be going very slow, at elevated RPM, under high load with mud blocking your rad in 30C+ heat.
Honda? They spec'd both 10W-30 conventional and 5W-40 synthetic for the S2000. They also tend to be a marque that has historically gone with the "API minimum" specs for oil performance, quite unlike the German marques who tend to have their own certifications and approvals.
But that's not universally true. Having a less demanding Winter rating can also mean the use of cheaper base oils with poorer performance characteristics because you can get away with it with a narrower spread.
This 10W-30 HDEO blending example has a higher Noack than Euro 0W-40's and is dominated by a 5cSt base oil:
View attachment 141864
That's a base oil viscosity of 5.59cSt.
This 10W-40 A3/B4 lube is the same:
View attachment 141865
Base oil viscosity of 5.68cSt
This 0W-40:
View attachment 141868
Base oil viscosity is 5.02cSt, the 0W-30 is 5.22.
So, roughly 0.5cSt; 1/2 a centistroke but you are using Group II+ instead of PAO. What are the implications of that? Well:
- The 5cSt Group II+ has a 210C flashpoint and 13.5% Noack
- SpectraSyn 4 is 220C and - SpectraSyn 6 is 246C and
Which is why the 0W-40 has a lower Noack than the 10W-30 and 10W-40. In application, M1 0W-40 is 8.8% Noack, even lower.
I mean, they wouldn't use it if it didn't work
https://www.exxonmobil.com/en-bg/basestocks/pds/gl-xx-apecore-series
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Mobil publishes the numbers for the ones above, but say SpectraSyn 4, that's a 4cSt base oil. SpectraSyn 6? 6cSt. They are named, typically, after their 100C viscosity.
edyvw
$50 site donor 2025
Mobil1 racing oils (racing, not track or sport) are strictly 0W: 0W30 and 0W50.
While HTHS is most important value there, there is much more to it than just CCS or HTHS.
I gave you my UOA using 0W40 oils in an engine that on track drops below 5,500rpm only when shifting gears. There is no any abnormal wear, shearing etc.
One more thanig, here we are talking engine from beginning of 1990’s. I had M50 in 520 E34. It was recommended for 15W40 or 10W40. I used back then 10W40. HTHS of 10W40 at that time was low 3cp, and 15W40 wasn’t any better. At that time 15W40 in Europe was strictly mineral oil while 10W40 was semi-synthetic. Comparing those oils to today’s oils is absolutely ridiculous.
While HTHS is most important value there, there is much more to it than just CCS or HTHS.
I gave you my UOA using 0W40 oils in an engine that on track drops below 5,500rpm only when shifting gears. There is no any abnormal wear, shearing etc.
One more thanig, here we are talking engine from beginning of 1990’s. I had M50 in 520 E34. It was recommended for 15W40 or 10W40. I used back then 10W40. HTHS of 10W40 at that time was low 3cp, and 15W40 wasn’t any better. At that time 15W40 in Europe was strictly mineral oil while 10W40 was semi-synthetic. Comparing those oils to today’s oils is absolutely ridiculous.
So, you are talking only about the base oil thickness of Mobil oils?
I was thinking and talking about the general comparsion of Base oil thickness of a PAO 0w- compared to a PAO 10w- and the difference in engine protection at extreme conditons. High heat, High Piston Speed, High RPM.
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