Oil volatility and oxidation are related ... that's all I've said, nothing else. You can't have one without the other when high heat is part of the equation.
Source - Link to PDF article: Volatility of engine oils
High Performance Lubricants No VII series engine oils.
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Source - Link to PDF article: Volatility of engine oils
I do not have a Noack but I do have a TGA. There is a method in the TGA that simulates Noack. One of the early versions of this method was actually authored by our Dr Rudnick. Noack has been a question mark as we get into lighter oils as evidenced by the new proposed lower temperature test. I certainly was not looking to buy a machine when this question was in limbo. If you use good materials Noack is much less of a concern. We fit that category. We do look at off the shelf products and compare them on TGA to our products to know where we stand. I a very comfortable with where we stand. Some are huge improvements, some are smaller improvements. The point is we do the work to be sure the product has the integrity we want it to have. That is my job. If someone feels we cannot be trusted then chances are pretty good we are not gonna be a good fit with each other. If we don't have that credibility with you there are plenty of oils on the shelf to choose from. That's ok.
As I already mentioned we do not have an issue with consumption. Material choice is the reason for that.
We made this series at the request of a BITOG member. We completed the series of viscosities that I felt were applicable to work with. It is the totality of the formulation that is important. I am quite sure these will do a great job and will have better volatility than the oils that are already out there working without issue to begin with. As this is a relatively small series of oil there is no need for me to spend the money running Noack when we do have a TGA and understand we are where we need to be. I don't publish this information as they don't correlate 100%. With the materials we use we are no where near being out of spec.
David
As I already mentioned we do not have an issue with consumption. Material choice is the reason for that.
We made this series at the request of a BITOG member. We completed the series of viscosities that I felt were applicable to work with. It is the totality of the formulation that is important. I am quite sure these will do a great job and will have better volatility than the oils that are already out there working without issue to begin with. As this is a relatively small series of oil there is no need for me to spend the money running Noack when we do have a TGA and understand we are where we need to be. I don't publish this information as they don't correlate 100%. With the materials we use we are no where near being out of spec.
David
^^^ Just found this paper. "The TGA Noack Test for the Assessment of Engine Oil Volatility".
Dave @High Performance Lubricants, is this basically what HPL uses (link below)? Have you ever correlated the TGA test results to the standard Noack test method results? Edit - I see in your post above that you've most likely done some TGA Noack comparison/correlation work with standard Noack testing methods.
PDF link to paper:
https://www.perkinelmer.com/CMSReso...r_the_Assessment_of_Engine_Oil_Volatility.pdf
Dave @High Performance Lubricants, is this basically what HPL uses (link below)? Have you ever correlated the TGA test results to the standard Noack test method results? Edit - I see in your post above that you've most likely done some TGA Noack comparison/correlation work with standard Noack testing methods.
PDF link to paper:
https://www.perkinelmer.com/CMSReso...r_the_Assessment_of_Engine_Oil_Volatility.pdf
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Last one I did the math on was over 180 million miles in a single year using HPL PCMO 5w30. And they’ve been doing this for a decade or so… so this oil has been fleet tested to nearly 2 BILLION miles. I’d say it’s good enough for Joe Average.
Yes. And we actually have 2 TGA's and one of those 2 is in fact a Perkin Elmer. The balance in the head of this instrument has a resolution of 10 to the minus 6 of a gram.
David
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Bingo.Last one I did the math on was over 180 million miles in a single year using HPL PCMO 5w30. And they’ve been doing this for a decade or so… so this oil has been fleet tested to nearly 2 BILLION miles. I’d say it’s good enough for Joe Average.
D
Deleted member 89374
I know they do, however, it is not my place to talk about certain things, especially when I don't know that the information I've been entrusted with is for public consumption or not. E.g. the testing they do. That's why I limit my comments and observations to information that's already been made publicly available. That is also why I offered my own experience with another premium brand that's supposed to have great NOACK, yet failed me towards the end of the OCI. Yes, I could have taken a sample or two, spent more money having the samples analyzed. But to what end? Had I not paid closer attention, that particular brand of oil could have ended up killing my engine. So yes, it's a bit upsetting now that I think back. But hey, the published NOACK of 6% looks awesome on paper, right? And that was my entire point: NOACK isn't everything. It's important for it to be reasonable, however, by no means is it everything. I believe that's pretty easy to understand.
That being said, I don't think I have anything else of value to add to this discussion, so I'm going to withdraw from it. Best of luck to everyone!
I don't think anyone can conclude that Noack was the cause since no UOA was done to even see how the oil changed if it was actually a volatility change that caused anything.
Well, it took a lot of digging and asking questions for information on how HPL determines a volatility level by using some other test method beside the standard ASTM Noack test. It has never been divulged to this level before, even though many people have asked before whey there is no published Noack test numbers.
What I mean is there was never any technical information given on how TGA works, if it was a practiced and accepted industry standard, etc ... and how it can be used instead of the industruy standard Noack test to get an idea of the oil's volitility. Those posts only say that TGA is used and that "TGA roughly corresponds to a Noack". Corresponds how exactly?
They stated at the HPL Open House that they sent the PCMO 10W-20 out for Noack, by request and curiosity, and I think they said it was 3.4%. That oil is primarily group III. The No VII series is primarily group IV with similar viscosity base oils.
To reach a 5W-20 and 5W-30 spread without VII requires really high quality base oils. Those base oils aren't going to have high Noacks. Any Noack testing would just be out of curiosity.
To reach a 5W-20 and 5W-30 spread without VII requires really high quality base oils. Those base oils aren't going to have high Noacks. Any Noack testing would just be out of curiosity.
This Euro 5W20 checks a lot of boxes for me - good cold temp performance, strong HT/HS (better than most 5W-30's) and excellent shear stability.
What does one gain by choosing the Euro 10W20 over the Euro 5W20?
What does one gain by choosing the Euro 10W20 over the Euro 5W20?
D
Deleted member 89374
Better thermal stability. Same goes for the no-VII 10W-30.
How?
D
Deleted member 89374
10W-20 can be accomplished almost entirely, or entirely, with a single monograde base oil. This results in better thermal stability. 5W-20 and 5W-30 are blended with multiple base oils and most likely mPAO. This may result in a product with slightly higher NOACK. Nothing earth shattering though. However, that would be the point of a 10W-20 and 10W-30. Though now that we have no-VII 5W-20 and 5W-30, both in Dexos and Euro flavors, I can't imagine why anyone would choose 10W-20 over 5W-20 or 10W-30 over 5W-30, unless they want to run it in an engine that's really hard on oil, and even then... But you know what? I'm probably going in circles here because it's late and more choice is always better, right?
As far as I'm concerned, I ordered 12 quarts of NO-VII 5W-30 Euro for my 2022 Dodge Durango GT Plus - V6 Pentastar. It's already on the ramps waiting for the new oil. I'll post when I change it, hopefully on Friday. I think that an engine that's not hard on oil plus an oil that's as good as it gets is a winning combo.
I think I see where you’re going with this. However, without having full knowledge of the variables at hand, we do not know if those facts are true. Heck, with the materials that HPL uses, the scenario could be opposite.
D
Deleted member 89374
I would just ask Dave @High Performance Lubricants.
The 5W-20 could be a single base oil as well. Here's the specs for SpectraSyn 8 (PAO).
KV100 - 8.0 cSt
KV40 - 48 cSt
CCS - 4,800 cP @ -30°C
Noack - 4.1%
Throw in some ester and AN, then the add pack, you arrive at the published CCS of 6,280 cP @ -30°C. It's very believable. In fact, I could see the No VII Euro 5W-20 having as low of a Noack as the PCMO 10W-20 as well. Basically, everything the PCMO 10W-20 does, as stout as it is in its own right, this 5W-20 does better.
KV100 - 8.0 cSt
KV40 - 48 cSt
CCS - 4,800 cP @ -30°C
Noack - 4.1%
Throw in some ester and AN, then the add pack, you arrive at the published CCS of 6,280 cP @ -30°C. It's very believable. In fact, I could see the No VII Euro 5W-20 having as low of a Noack as the PCMO 10W-20 as well. Basically, everything the PCMO 10W-20 does, as stout as it is in its own right, this 5W-20 does better.
D
Deleted member 89374
I just ordered No-VII 5W-30 Euro for my Durango (3.6 V6). I'm more curious about how you think that one is blended, because the specs are unbelievable, all around.
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